| 00:00:13 | captain_proton | this flag waving thing is giving me a headache |
| 00:00:24 | Widget | What flag waving thing? |
| 00:00:34 | captain_proton | i'm trying to make the flags wave in 1.8 |
| 00:00:48 | Widget | Don't they arelady do that in 1.7? |
| 00:01:50 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 00:01:54 | captain_proton | but 1.8 is different |
| 00:02:01 | iLLf8d | oh sheesh screw the waving |
| 00:02:08 | Widget | How will it be different? |
| 00:02:19 | Widget | Hm... SourceForge has a new look. |
| 00:02:26 | iLLf8d | caps gonna make all the flags intermittenly give people the finger |
| 00:02:30 | BZFlag | heh. will will ship no flag before it waves. |
| 00:02:31 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 00:02:38 | BZFlag | er "we will". |
| 00:02:42 | BZFlag | and I was joking. |
| 00:03:03 | iLLf8d | How about tank decals? |
| 00:03:05 | iLLf8d | oooo |
| 00:03:06 | captain_proton | Widget: geometry in 1.8 isn't hard coded |
| 00:03:08 | iLLf8d | that would be worth it |
| 00:03:09 | iLLf8d | =) |
| 00:03:16 | captain_proton | its all defined in xml files |
| 00:03:41 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: well - nobody should have so many superflags on their server anyway ;) |
| 00:03:46 | Widget | captain_proton: Ah. |
| 00:03:58 | Widget | What are tank decals? |
| 00:04:10 | iLLf8d | wants to have blood and eyes and teeth on his tank |
| 00:04:13 | BZFlag | logos on tanks |
| 00:04:13 | iLLf8d | MUWAHAHA |
| 00:04:16 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 00:04:18 | iLLf8d | we needem |
| 00:04:18 | Widget | Yes. |
| 00:04:20 | Widget | I want those. |
| 00:04:30 | captain_proton | BZFlag: speaking of which - hows that protocol coming? ;) |
| 00:04:37 | iLLf8d | maybe a little killroy |
| 00:04:40 | iLLf8d | etc... |
| 00:04:57 | iLLf8d | would be cool to have decals inside the tank too heh |
| 00:05:02 | Widget | On the patches page, is there a way to filter out all the patches except e5 patches? |
| 00:05:09 | iLLf8d | for drivethroughs |
| 00:05:26 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: once the new physics works there won't be drivethroughs |
| 00:05:37 | iLLf8d | well what about drive overs then? |
| 00:05:49 | iLLf8d | ie your tank goes up and over the top |
| 00:06:19 | iLLf8d | would be cool if tank crushin was a norm |
| 00:06:24 | iLLf8d | ie like steamroll w/out a flag |
| 00:06:30 | Widget | captain_proton: On the patches page, is there a way to filter out all the patches except e5 patches? |
| 00:06:43 | Widget | iLLf8d: Then who would crush whom? |
| 00:06:43 | captain_proton | Widget: not really. however, almost all should be e5 patches |
| 00:06:55 | iLLf8d | the guy running forward attacking from the side |
| 00:06:56 | captain_proton | all the newer ones anyway |
| 00:07:08 | iLLf8d | only crush case |
| 00:07:22 | captain_proton | jump down from the decks onto tanks =) |
| 00:07:29 | iLLf8d | ie you'd have to be doing full forward perpendicular to the kill |
| 00:07:31 | Widget | captain_proton: A lot seem to be 1.8 patches. |
| 00:07:42 | iLLf8d | you could have some cool graphic too |
| 00:07:46 | iLLf8d | flattened tank |
| 00:07:47 | captain_proton | Widget: there should only be one or two 1.8 patches |
| 00:07:54 | iLLf8d | delay explosion by like 1-2 seconds |
| 00:08:01 | iLLf8d | and have parts rolling away and disappearing |
| 00:08:02 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 00:08:46 | iLLf8d | BZFlag big question.... whats the scoop on the new field spec? ie map files etc.... |
| 00:08:48 | Widget | captain_proton: Have the radar changes been incorporated yet? |
| 00:09:00 | iLLf8d | is there any chance I can start goofing with pyopengl to try to make a new map editor? |
| 00:09:02 | Widget | captain_proton: And the new crosshairs? |
| 00:09:06 | captain_proton | Widget: e5 features are frozen |
| 00:09:08 | iLLf8d | I'm getting pretty python savvy |
| 00:09:31 | captain_proton | does some quick trig calculations |
| 00:09:38 | Widget | captain_proton: Er... CVS, then. |
| 00:12:17 | captain_proton | huh? |
| 00:20:17 | captain_proton | sniffles...BZFlag didn't answer |
| 00:24:56 | Widget | How come you left? |
| 00:25:26 | captain_proton | ? |
| 00:26:10 | Widget | ROaming works differently in 1.8 than in 1.7. |
| 00:26:16 | captain_proton | slightly |
| 00:26:19 | Widget | Up arrow makes you look up, not down as it does in 1.7. |
| 00:26:31 | captain_proton | i reversed the up/down tilt to work like it ought to |
| 00:26:32 | captain_proton | =) |
| 00:26:52 | Widget | I like the 1.7 way. It's like a joystick. |
| 00:27:08 | Widget | And if you do shift+forward in 1.7, then press right at the same time, it goes forward and right, but in 1.8 it just strafes to the right. |
| 00:27:15 | captain_proton | arrow keys should move the camera, not the world |
| 00:27:18 | captain_proton | =) |
| 00:27:21 | Widget | Hm. |
| 00:27:30 | captain_proton | Widget: well, i couldn't do that with the 1.8 input system |
| 00:27:32 | Widget | It moves the camera in 1.7 as well, right? |
| 00:27:36 | captain_proton | sorta |
| 00:27:41 | captain_proton | up/down act as if they move the world |
| 00:28:41 | taD_ | hmm |
| 00:28:50 | taD_ | did you see RCAM come online today? |
| 00:28:54 | | rcam was last seen on #bzflag 4 hours, 40 minutes and 50 seconds ago, saying: By the way Twisted Magic is coming out Quarter 4 of this year. [Sun Jun 9 20:48:04 2002] |
| 00:28:54 | taD_ | ibot seen rcam |
| 00:29:02 | taD_ | hehe |
| 00:30:44 | captain_proton | yeah i saw |
| 00:30:52 | taD_ | hehe |
| 00:42:44 | captain_proton | growls |
| 00:52:27 | Widget | Woowoo. |
| 00:52:46 | Widget | A God-Fearing Jew with a gun will make the diaperheads run |
| 00:53:52 | captain_proton | grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
| 00:54:51 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: zuh? |
| 00:55:02 | captain_proton | i can't get this animate node to work |
| 00:55:08 | captain_proton | i've got the geometry all figured out for flag waving |
| 00:56:12 | Widget | Woohoo. |
| 01:06:46 | captain_proton | argh |
| 01:06:49 | captain_proton | stupid animate nodes |
| 01:20:37 | captain_proton | AAAAAAAAARGH |
| 01:20:42 | captain_proton | where is crs when you need him? |
| 02:09:47 | BZFrank | hi |
| 02:10:16 | captain_proton | hey frank |
| 02:10:31 | BZFrank | thought I drop by and say hello |
| 02:10:40 | BZFrank | hey cp ;) |
| 02:10:48 | captain_proton | how goes? |
| 02:11:10 | BZFrank | DSL is down, but ISDN still up, so no play tonight :( |
| 02:11:33 | BZFrank | But gives me some time to work on more important stuff... |
| 02:11:41 | captain_proton | whats more important than bz? |
| 02:11:48 | BZFrank | p2501 :) |
| 02:12:06 | captain_proton | hah! |
| 02:12:12 | BZFrank | you shall see |
| 02:12:19 | BZFrank | soon ;) |
| 02:13:38 | BZFrank | but anyway, I don't want to make concurrence to bzflag, the concept is a bit more different |
| 02:13:59 | captain_proton | in what manner? |
| 02:14:12 | BZFrank | also you could use parts of it if you like in bzflag, e.g. the UDP networking layer is very modular |
| 02:15:08 | BZFrank | well, it is still shoot and get the flags but bzflag is a different kind of beast as the models make gameplay different |
| 02:15:46 | BZFrank | e.g. in bzflag you can be sure that a shot reflects perfectly as the buildings are perfect in the collision sense. not so in p2501 if its rounded surfaces |
| 02:16:02 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 02:16:10 | captain_proton | i don't think we'll have curved surfaces in 1.8 |
| 02:16:17 | captain_proton | just convex polyhedra |
| 02:16:36 | BZFrank | I always get the willies when I come back from p2501 to bzflag, could not pay until my mind adapts |
| 02:17:24 | BZFrank | nope, no convext polyhedras, i though so much should be clear my now |
| 02:17:35 | captain_proton | huh? |
| 02:18:09 | BZFrank | grr keyboard has a different layout here , sorry for the typos ;) |
| 02:18:53 | captain_proton | can you rephrase " nope, no convext polyhedras, i though so much should be clear my now" - makes no sense to me |
| 02:19:40 | BZFrank | p2501 modes are soups of polygons, no convex polyhedras |
| 02:19:45 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 02:19:48 | captain_proton | i meant for bz |
| 02:19:48 | BZFrank | modes = modells |
| 02:20:12 | captain_proton | obstacles are convex polyhedra. |
| 02:20:15 | BZFrank | sure, there of course |
| 02:20:29 | captain_proton | visual geometry will be whatever the map specifies |
| 02:20:44 | BZFrank | this is also different in p2501 |
| 02:21:06 | captain_proton | do you just use the polygons for both? |
| 02:21:36 | BZFrank | the 'map' file only describes the initial world of the server, but clients (and the server) may change this during gameplay, add objects, take objects away, etc. |
| 02:23:05 | BZFrank | map -> position and object types, models -> visual geometry and textures and collisions models (autocompiled from visual objects, but can be different from them so all tanks regardless of visuals have the same) |
| 02:23:51 | BZFrank | anyway, I think bz 1.8 will have also some loadable models as far as I see what Chris is doing ;) |
| 02:24:16 | BZFrank | so far p2501 has laready served its purpose to accellerate the bzflag development :) |
| 02:24:43 | captain_proton | i hesitate to call 1.8's stuff models |
| 02:25:03 | BZFrank | well, sort of at least |
| 02:25:11 | captain_proton | big xml files =) |
| 02:25:30 | BZFrank | beside I plan for a public (including source code) release of p2501 under the GPL in July |
| 02:25:56 | captain_proton | ooh |
| 02:26:11 | BZFrank | it is no vapourware, really |
| 02:28:05 | BZFrank | the only think there is left out is the authentication layer for the client and server. but hte public source release will be compileable with a null layer so it can be made to create servers and clients, only these won't connect to the 'blessed' servers the contains the authentication layer (sort of anti cheat protection to keep some script kiddies from hacking the source) |
| 02:28:16 | BZFrank | think = thing , uah getting late ;) |
| 02:29:02 | captain_proton | i don't like the idea of private sources =| |
| 02:29:17 | BZFrank | could not be avoided, see the current situation with bzflag |
| 02:29:52 | captain_proton | we're going to try to solve that on a social level |
| 02:30:14 | BZFrank | won't work, did not with other games either |
| 02:30:25 | captain_proton | i'm not so sure |
| 02:30:32 | captain_proton | some games have been really successful with it |
| 02:30:35 | BZFrank | see the diabolo or WO situation |
| 02:30:59 | BZFrank | which games? |
| 02:31:16 | captain_proton | everquest for instance |
| 02:31:31 | captain_proton | they set up a method for people to identify cheaters |
| 02:31:34 | captain_proton | and people used it |
| 02:32:54 | BZFrank | different type of game, beside they also employed several changes to make cheating harder and are not particular open source |
| 02:33:06 | captain_proton | true |
| 02:34:06 | captain_proton | we're going to be moving more stuff to the server to make cheating harder, but nobody wants to restrict soure |
| 02:34:18 | BZFrank | Of course things yould be put into the server for most cases but this would employ are larger roundtrip |
| 02:34:41 | BZFrank | some things must be handled in the client to keep things fast |
| 02:35:22 | captain_proton | but things like death detection can be moved to the server without significant network increase |
| 02:36:05 | BZFrank | I did not restrict source, only an essential part of it that is needed to identify a server created by me (or some closed developer group), anyone can create and run a server that does not do this... |
| 02:36:38 | BZFrank | so what is so bad about this? |
| 02:36:47 | captain_proton | well |
| 02:36:54 | captain_proton | people won't have any incentive to hack at it |
| 02:37:01 | BZFrank | why? |
| 02:37:15 | captain_proton | because until their changes make it into an official release, they can't use their client to play on blessed servers |
| 02:37:37 | captain_proton | and nobody will play on non-blessed servers, because there could (will?) be cheaters |
| 02:37:44 | BZFrank | sure, and? they could always open up a an open server |
| 02:38:47 | BZFrank | I am not so sure about your later issue. You only see the developer view, but players don't want cheating the this scheme will give them some protection while opening the source to anyone |
| 02:39:12 | BZFrank | so any group can create their own 'blessed' version, no troubles with this |
| 02:39:58 | BZFrank | and beside also a blessed server can be set to allow custom clients, this is only an option in the config file |
| 02:40:07 | captain_proton | i see |
| 02:40:56 | BZFrank | but for a match only blessed clients can be allowed so everyone has the same chances (not just like now in the bzflag world, with some hack here and some hack there even in the 'public' versions |
| 02:41:32 | BZFrank | e.g. the placment hack in never e versions that look harder for a free spot. this is an unfair advantage to anyone running it. |
| 02:42:03 | captain_proton | true |
| 02:42:14 | captain_proton | but since that source is public everybody has access to it |
| 02:42:24 | captain_proton | cheaters don't release their stuff |
| 02:42:38 | BZFrank | no, only people that can compile, most people out there can't |
| 02:42:52 | BZFrank | this is a world of users, not creators ;) |
| 02:43:26 | captain_proton | thats why people like apathy release compiled versions |
| 02:44:14 | BZFrank | yes, but that does not work out, most people look for the 'public' release or use the preinstalled (Linux distro) one. |
| 02:45:01 | captain_proton | no use arguing about this... |
| 02:45:16 | captain_proton | i just don't like the idea of keeping a portion of the source secret |
| 02:47:08 | jpablo | is anonymous cvs not in sync with main cvs ? |
| 02:47:18 | captain_proton | uhm |
| 02:47:21 | captain_proton | there's no difference |
| 02:48:53 | jpablo | humm, then cvs-commits is not in sync ... |
| 02:49:24 | captain_proton | ?? |
| 02:50:48 | jpablo | the commit list |
| 02:51:01 | jpablo | the commit mail list |
| 02:51:59 | captain_proton | yeah the mail list has been a little bit late |
| 02:53:12 | jpablo | humm, the help screen is overlaping with the hud on current cvs |
| 02:55:00 | BZFrank | is the current CVS version alike the f5 apathy release in the HUD? |
| 02:55:11 | captain_proton | nods |
| 02:55:35 | BZFrank | looks awful ;) sorry... but the old HUD was much nicer IMHO |
| 02:55:45 | captain_proton | bah |
| 02:55:50 | captain_proton | suit yourself |
| 02:56:12 | BZFrank | also it does not display the score, or so small that I cannot read it without microscope ;) |
| 02:56:35 | captain_proton | try current cvs |
| 02:56:43 | captain_proton | we did a lot of work on fonts |
| 02:57:22 | BZFrank | Ok so I'll wait for e5 |
| 02:59:29 | jpablo | wow, /me finds the -view option |
| 02:59:49 | jpablo | -view three will be useful with my dual head matrox. |
| 03:06:25 | OoOoO | i agree with frank on the new hud i have in f5 |
| 03:06:33 | OoOoO | hi by the way |
| 03:06:36 | BZFrank | thanks :) |
| 03:06:43 | BZFrank | hi btw back |
| 03:06:43 | captain_proton | sigh |
| 03:06:49 | captain_proton | nobody appreciates me =( |
| 03:07:00 | OoOoO | captain: question on observor mode in f5 |
| 03:07:28 | OoOoO | the time left during the matches doesnt display, and makes it difficult switching players during the match. |
| 03:07:38 | OoOoO | is that an easy fix? |
| 03:07:41 | captain_proton | yeah i noticed that |
| 03:07:46 | captain_proton | it shouldn't be too difficult |
| 03:08:43 | OoOoO | and captain, your always appreciated! |
| 03:09:14 | jpablo | hehe. |
| 03:09:36 | jpablo | a option is needed to make the new hud had a black background. |
| 03:09:40 | jpablo | it's confiusing at least for me. |
| 03:09:51 | captain_proton | turn off blending |
| 03:10:18 | captain_proton | it'll make the rest of the game ooogly, but it'll make the radar be black |
| 03:10:33 | BZFrank | sorry but that is no solution... |
| 03:11:15 | OoOoO | e5 had a bunch of 'new' things under options, the colored shots etc, but that went away in f5?? |
| 03:11:38 | captain_proton | don't use f5 anymore |
| 03:11:46 | captain_proton | its been made obsolete in the last couple days |
| 03:11:58 | OoOoO | really, so use what? |
| 03:12:34 | OoOoO | i'm getting my versions from apathys site. |
| 03:13:18 | captain_proton | hang on a sec |
| 03:13:55 | captain_proton | get apathy's e5 build |
| 03:14:58 | OoOoO | ok, thanks. |
| 03:15:47 | captain_proton | it looks like the only thing differentiating f5 at this point is the SILENCE command |
| 03:17:04 | OoOoO | i heard someone mention that the direct messaging is different in e5, is it? |
| 03:17:15 | OoOoO | i mean can i direct message observors? |
| 03:17:59 | captain_proton | yeah sorta |
| 03:18:01 | captain_proton | press . |
| 03:18:09 | captain_proton | then right/left cycle who you send the message to |
| 03:19:00 | OoOoO | aaah, great, thanks, it cycles through all players and observors/ |
| 03:20:00 | OoOoO | jpablo: your team seems pretty strong, you guys going to be able to play any matches soon? |
| 03:21:13 | iLLf8d | SILENCE? |
| 03:21:17 | iLLf8d | wassat do? |
| 03:21:33 | captain_proton | it allows you to ignore someone |
| 03:21:37 | captain_proton | locally |
| 03:21:41 | iLLf8d | ah nice |
| 03:21:50 | iLLf8d | I'd like to ignore someone globally tho |
| 03:21:51 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:21:52 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 03:21:53 | iLLf8d | jk |
| 03:22:16 | iLLf8d | messes with radar background transparency |
| 03:22:26 | captain_proton | whoops at flag waving |
| 03:22:32 | Widget | captain_proton: It works? |
| 03:23:27 | jpablo | OoOoO: we are WILLING to play |
| 03:23:50 | jpablo | OoOoO: we are here almost very nigth on EST time. |
| 03:24:34 | jpablo | but we can't play sundays. |
| 03:24:39 | OoOoO | really, cool, most of my team is EST time as well. |
| 03:24:55 | OoOoO | maybe we can figure out a night this week. |
| 03:25:21 | OoOoO | Captain:are meq players in the US/ |
| 03:25:36 | captain_proton | OoOoO: yeah |
| 03:25:45 | jpablo | OoOoO: just meet us on irc any nigth. |
| 03:25:49 | captain_proton | Widget: *nod* - just checked in |
| 03:26:00 | OoOoO | you guys available at night during the week as well? |
| 03:26:37 | jpablo | talking to me or to cp ? |
| 03:26:46 | OoOoO | jpablo: ok will see if others can be around. |
| 03:27:17 | jpablo | ok, if you want a confirmed date let me know and i will confirm with my teammmates. |
| 03:27:22 | OoOoO | sorry Captain, is your team around at night during the week? |
| 03:27:30 | captain_proton | possibly |
| 03:27:48 | OoOoO | jpablo: ok, i will ask my team and see. |
| 03:28:00 | captain_proton | moles need to lose again |
| 03:28:06 | captain_proton | that orange looks awful |
| 03:28:18 | OoOoO | :) cant believe they lost today!!! |
| 03:28:24 | Widget | Neither can I! |
| 03:28:25 | iLLf8d | who lost? |
| 03:28:29 | OoOoO | moles |
| 03:28:29 | Widget | The Moles! |
| 03:28:31 | Widget | Can you believe it? |
| 03:28:42 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:28:46 | iLLf8d | who'd they play |
| 03:28:50 | Widget | TLZ. |
| 03:28:50 | jpablo | nah, we can beat the moles at any time :-P |
| 03:28:58 | iLLf8d | yeah one of those zee guys is good |
| 03:29:01 | Widget | Last time Moles played TLZ, they won 11-1. |
| 03:29:05 | Widget | iLLf8d: Fanta? |
| 03:29:07 | jpablo | we just need that everybody stop downloading pr0nt here. |
| 03:29:09 | iLLf8d | not sure which |
| 03:29:18 | Widget | iLLf8d: I'll play you on ducati. |
| 03:29:23 | iLLf8d | the others are at a high level with the rest of us but one stands out bigtime |
| 03:29:35 | iLLf8d | I'm playing with radar colors and transparency |
| 03:29:40 | iLLf8d | gimme like 2-10 min |
| 03:29:50 | Widget | iLLf8d: How do you edit it? |
| 03:29:53 | iLLf8d | I'm compiling as we speak |
| 03:30:00 | iLLf8d | you can change colors in the config |
| 03:30:03 | Widget | captain_proton: Hm.... the flag waving seems a bit more.... conservative than in 1.7. |
| 03:30:09 | iLLf8d | and you can change the transparency in the code |
| 03:30:15 | Widget | captain_proton: It doesn't wave as much... and it only seems to wave.. vertically. |
| 03:30:17 | captain_proton | Widget: yeah |
| 03:30:29 | Widget | iLLf8d: Oh, yes, in ControlPanel.cxx and RadarRenderer.cxx? |
| 03:30:32 | iLLf8d | doens't like not being able to see some of the shots on radar |
| 03:30:37 | iLLf8d | in RadarRender.cxx |
| 03:30:38 | Widget | captain_proton: Was that intentional? |
| 03:30:39 | iLLf8d | line 47ish |
| 03:30:40 | captain_proton | Widget: i'm still playing with it a tiny bit |
| 03:30:47 | iLLf8d | [3] background line |
| 03:30:57 | iLLf8d | apathy pointed it out when I asked |
| 03:31:01 | Widget | Interesting. When 1.8 starts up, it says the following: |
| 03:31:01 | iLLf8d | it needs it bad |
| 03:31:03 | Widget | loaded bmetal |
| 03:31:03 | Widget | loaded logo |
| 03:31:03 | Widget | loaded flage |
| 03:31:06 | Widget | Someone can't spell. |
| 03:31:11 | iLLf8d | when you're on rooftops you can't see any fire at all |
| 03:31:21 | BZFrank | well, its flagge in german ;) |
| 03:31:28 | captain_proton | most of the time it took was getting the <animate> node to work |
| 03:31:39 | captain_proton | BZFrank: compromise perhaps? |
| 03:31:40 | Widget | BZFrank: Some sort of compromise? |
| 03:31:42 | jpablo | humm, i don't have RadarRender.cxx any idea ? |
| 03:31:52 | BZFrank | perhaps |
| 03:32:02 | captain_proton | jpablo: src/bzflag/RadarRenderer.cxx |
| 03:32:09 | captain_proton | Widget: great minds must think alike |
| 03:32:14 | jpablo | i see Renderer nor Render |
| 03:32:15 | Widget | Just like UTC. (Universal Coordinated Time). UCT in English, CUT in French, so UTC was a compromise. |
| 03:32:20 | Widget | captain_proton: And fools never differ. |
| 03:32:33 | Widget | jpablo: Did you compile from source? |
| 03:32:39 | iLLf8d | oops heh |
| 03:32:46 | iLLf8d | aparently I turned on too many heh |
| 03:32:47 | jpablo | Widget: yeah the cvs version. |
| 03:32:51 | captain_proton | jpablo: renderer is the file |
| 03:32:56 | Widget | jpablo: RadarRenderer.cxx |
| 03:33:00 | iLLf8d | must've set each color too high cause my background is almost white now heh |
| 03:33:22 | jpablo | yeah, i find it when cp tell me, but as my english sucks i say something i didn't want to say |
| 03:33:28 | captain_proton | increase the 4th argument to glColor in it ([0, 1]) to increase opacity |
| 03:33:30 | jpablo | s/tell/told |
| 03:34:17 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 03:34:21 | captain_proton | consumption won? |
| 03:34:41 | Widget | captain_proton: GLColor on what line? |
| 03:34:59 | Widget | glColor3f(1.0,1.0,1.0); |
| 03:35:02 | Widget | This one? |
| 03:35:08 | captain_proton | no |
| 03:35:32 | Widget | captain_proton: Where, then? |
| 03:35:35 | BZFrank | glColor4f |
| 03:35:50 | Widget | glColor4fv(background); |
| 03:35:51 | Widget | That? |
| 03:35:58 | captain_proton | ahh oops |
| 03:36:17 | captain_proton | RadarRenderer.cxx:47 |
| 03:36:20 | iLLf8d | whatya trying to change the team color or what? |
| 03:36:30 | iLLf8d | yeah line 47 you want |
| 03:36:33 | Widget | background[3] = 0.5f; |
| 03:36:34 | captain_proton | forgot that it uses glColor4fv instead of glColor4f |
| 03:36:36 | Widget | That one? |
| 03:36:43 | captain_proton | 1.0 is full opacity |
| 03:36:46 | captain_proton | 0.0 is fully transparent |
| 03:36:51 | Widget | Ah. OK. |
| 03:36:51 | iLLf8d | background[3] = 0.9f; |
| 03:36:55 | iLLf8d | that will make it dark |
| 03:37:05 | iLLf8d | hey how many significant digits cap? |
| 03:37:11 | iLLf8d | can I do .95 I tired .9 |
| 03:37:22 | jpablo | cool. |
| 03:37:28 | Widget | Woohoo! This means I can increase my brightness again. |
| 03:37:31 | BZFrank | yep, thats a float buddy |
| 03:37:32 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:37:34 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: standard float |
| 03:37:36 | iLLf8d | cool |
| 03:37:48 | iLLf8d | also are there similar controls for the textbox? |
| 03:37:51 | Widget | is conservative and makes it 0.7. |
| 03:37:51 | BZFrank | actually a GLfloat, but that is typedef float anyway |
| 03:37:57 | Widget | iLLf8d: That's in ControlPanel.cxx. |
| 03:38:02 | iLLf8d | ie where peoples speech shows up |
| 03:38:07 | jpablo | ok, now i'm switching to cvs completly. |
| 03:38:39 | Widget | captain_proton: Where is the equivalent line in ControlPanel.cxx? |
| 03:38:41 | jpablo | anyone playing on ducati to test it ? |
| 03:38:46 | captain_proton | ControlPanel.cxx:145 |
| 03:38:55 | captain_proton | change the 4th argument there |
| 03:39:05 | BZFlag | hey all. |
| 03:39:06 | Widget | Ah... so the control panel is lighter? |
| 03:39:14 | BZFrank | why not put all this in the config file? much better than editing the source all the time... |
| 03:39:15 | captain_proton | heya tim |
| 03:39:17 | BZFlag | BZFlag: hey, welcome back. Have not seen you in a while. |
| 03:39:34 | BZFlag | BZFrank: it's all in a control file in 1.8 |
| 03:39:43 | captain_proton | well |
| 03:39:46 | captain_proton | lotsa files |
| 03:39:48 | BZFrank | ok ;) |
| 03:39:50 | BZFlag | heh |
| 03:39:53 | Widget | Believe it or not, now I like the look of 1.7 better than 1.8. |
| 03:40:02 | BZFlag | I see 2501 woke up again. cool. |
| 03:40:18 | captain_proton | BZFlag: scroll up for our argument on closed source ;) |
| 03:40:23 | BZFlag | Widget: then change 1.8 ;-) |
| 03:40:32 | BZFlag | captain_proton: yeah, just been reading. |
| 03:40:34 | iLLf8d | glColor4f(0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0, 0.8f ); |
| 03:40:34 | BZFrank | yep, moving for a July release |
| 03:40:45 | iLLf8d | that third argument supposed to ahve an f? |
| 03:40:49 | iLLf8d | was wondering |
| 03:40:50 | BZFlag | BZFrank: can you say a bit more on how the closed source code will work? |
| 03:40:57 | BZFrank | the network layers were quite some work |
| 03:40:58 | iLLf8d | apparently it doesn't |
| 03:41:02 | iLLf8d | have one that is |
| 03:41:19 | BZFlag | let's say I record the handshake with sniffit, and run the code in a debugger. can I see what is happening? |
| 03:41:24 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: it doesn't matter- the 'f' notation is type specification for C |
| 03:41:31 | iLLf8d | ah |
| 03:41:36 | BZFrank | well, p2501 will be released under the GPL (I wonder if I use the LGPL for parts but that are details), except for the authentication layer. |
| 03:41:40 | BZFlag | a simple "I'm blessed version 0x2342456 will be hacked in minutes. |
| 03:41:50 | BZFrank | NOt so baby |
| 03:41:59 | BZFrank | ;) |
| 03:42:03 | Widget | Hm... under scores, why is the font so fat now? |
| 03:42:14 | iLLf8d | thats phat |
| 03:42:15 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 03:42:15 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:42:19 | iLLf8d | thanks cap |
| 03:42:21 | BZFrank | Still it is hackable, but the level is higher |
| 03:42:26 | BZFlag | not so that a simple sug would be hacked? ot not so that it's not a simple sig? |
| 03:42:26 | iLLf8d | thanks bzflag |
| 03:42:34 | captain_proton | makes plans to hax0r it |
| 03:42:41 | Widget | Are the scores supposed to be in that different font now? |
| 03:43:05 | BZFlag | Widget: they fonts change now based on your resolution. |
| 03:43:11 | BZFlag | s/they/the/ |
| 03:43:29 | Widget | BZFlag: Ah, interesting. So this means I have ... high resolution? That's why it's fat? |
| 03:43:34 | Widget | Woohoo. |
| 03:43:38 | iLLf8d | how do I get a 100x100 window so I can get my 2mb vidcard screamin |
| 03:43:39 | iLLf8d | jk heh |
| 03:43:40 | Widget | iLLf8d: Done with your modifications? |
| 03:43:50 | BZFlag | BZFrank: I've put a good deal of thought into net authentication. |
| 03:43:53 | iLLf8d | I just changed mine again |
| 03:43:54 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:44:14 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: options->change video format ? |
| 03:44:17 | iLLf8d | yeah bznethighfive protocol verion 1 |
| 03:44:22 | iLLf8d | version 1 right bz? |
| 03:44:23 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:44:35 | BZFlag | BZFrank: you're not headed to OLS are you? |
| 03:44:38 | iLLf8d | I was just joking BZFlag =P |
| 03:44:45 | BZFrank | on connect the server sends a challenge to the client, the client must respond in kind. The challenge is a 256 bit asymetric public key, the client uses its private key to encode the response. The complete coder is written in an intepreted language that uses a kind of synthetic cpu, quite hard to see what is going on in assembly. |
| 03:44:47 | Widget | Interesting. Now whenever I try to quit, BZFlag crashes. |
| 03:45:17 | BZFlag | Widget: make clean;make |
| 03:45:19 | iLLf8d | BZFrank add in md5sum to the generation |
| 03:45:22 | iLLf8d | to test client code size |
| 03:45:32 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: thats a 30 second hack |
| 03:45:36 | iLLf8d | is it? |
| 03:45:37 | BZFrank | ill: can be faked |
| 03:45:38 | iLLf8d | suck |
| 03:45:42 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: someone just makes their client send the right md5 |
| 03:45:46 | iLLf8d | ok how about retinal scan? |
| 03:45:48 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 03:45:48 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 03:45:57 | BZFlag | BZFrank: vulnerable to the man in the middle attack though, yes? |
| 03:45:57 | iLLf8d | urine sampling dna analysis? |
| 03:46:30 | BZFlag | ie: start a blessed client as a child, talk to it as if you are a server, get it to answer challenges and use that reply. |
| 03:46:34 | jpablo | BZFrank: but then i can made a shared library and use LD_PRELOAD and modify the client anyway. |
| 03:46:41 | BZFrank | as the challenge is always different and the method fairly hidden I hope this will keep of some script kiddies of the 'patch a nop here' kind |
| 03:46:47 | iLLf8d | hey widhe |
| 03:46:49 | iLLf8d | widge |
| 03:46:51 | jpablo | the auth routines are the same, but not the rest |
| 03:47:01 | Widget | iLLf8d: Ja? |
| 03:47:12 | BZFlag | BZFrank: I suspect man in the middle will be the most common hack. |
| 03:47:28 | Widget | What's 'man in the middle'? |
| 03:47:45 | BZFlag | server->hacked client->blessed client. |
| 03:47:50 | BZFrank | sure, but that isn't so easy for the complete set of methods to do, I like to see someone put p2501 in a shlib ;) |
| 03:48:07 | BZFlag | you play on the hacked one, but pass challenges on to the blessed one so it will give valid replies. |
| 03:48:16 | BZFrank | bzflag, possible, but needs some effort. Beside the server repeats the challenge during the game |
| 03:48:36 | BZFlag | BZFrank: that's why the client is kept around. |
| 03:48:58 | BZFlag | he first hacks I saw on other net games were transparent proxies. |
| 03:49:09 | BZFlag | server->proxy->blessed client. |
| 03:49:27 | BZFrank | bzflag: well, all clients must have the same state otherwise the response would be invalid |
| 03:49:35 | BZFlag | then the proxy modifies whatever msgs it wants to. (like ignoring death etc) if the protocol allows it. |
| 03:49:36 | iLLf8d | seems that .95f on radar is good (you don't lose the fire on the rooftops against the light grey) also seems that .8f is great for the controlpanel =) |
| 03:50:08 | BZFlag | BZFrank: ahh. including as much game state as possible is a good thing. |
| 03:51:55 | BZFlag | BZFrank: I assume you have read up on nettrek. they use a similar technique that you are planning. |
| 03:52:08 | BZFrank | yep, I followed this closely |
| 03:52:23 | BZFlag | iirc all source is now open, just that the private/public keys are controlled. |
| 03:53:13 | BZFrank | in my scheme also the source for the encoder/decoder isn't public but that might change too |
| 03:53:15 | BZFlag | one key pair for each blessed client or server. the public versions are posted, so servers can select which clients they approve. |
| 03:53:18 | jpablo | debian/buildsnap cvs rules. |
| 03:53:29 | BZFrank | relying on closed source for security isn't |
| 03:53:50 | BZFlag | BZFrank: nettrek tried that and found that there were bugs in the closed source portion that were quickly exploited. |
| 03:54:33 | BZFrank | we shall see that too. I see it as a kind of experiment |
| 03:55:15 | BZFlag | experiment all you like! keep me posted on how it goes. I'm interested for obvious reasons. ;-) |
| 03:55:48 | BZFrank | you can reuse the UDP network layer of course, it is pretty independent of the rest |
| 03:56:06 | BZFrank | allows for reliable udp messages and is NAT friendly |
| 03:56:15 | BZFlag | I'm considering a kerberos like solution. the game list server would be the keyserver, servers are resources, and the clients are clients. (imagine that ;-) |
| 03:56:35 | BZFlag | brb |
| 03:56:57 | BZFrank | sounds like a good idea! |
| 04:01:10 | BZFrank | did you already done work in that direction? |
| 04:02:26 | captain_proton | Widget: i've got a new geometry file but i'm not sure if its better or not |
| 04:04:56 | captain_proton | Widget: can you dcc accept? |
| 04:05:12 | iLLf8d | hey you guys changed the scaling on the radar again? ie when you jump it grows faster? |
| 04:05:18 | iLLf8d | is there a setting for that somewhere too |
| 04:05:25 | iLLf8d | can't see for shit so... |
| 04:05:26 | BZFlag | is back |
| 04:05:31 | iLLf8d | too many hours playing bz heh |
| 04:05:57 | BZFlag | BZFrank: prototype stuff locally, nothing ready for actual live code yet. |
| 04:06:40 | BZFrank | ok, sounds like an interesting idea so let me hear when you got something running... ;) |
| 04:06:49 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: it was changed to be relative to screen dots, so it scales faster on lower res. |
| 04:07:28 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:07:29 | BZFlag | BZFrank: will do. do you respond as to OLS? http://linuxsymposium.org/ |
| 04:08:02 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: see the math in drawTank for the details. |
| 04:08:26 | iLLf8d | cool |
| 04:08:27 | BZFlag | note the usage of ps which is the pixelsize calculated earlier. |
| 04:08:50 | BZFrank | Ottawa Linux Symposium? Do you visit? |
| 04:08:57 | BZFlag | BZFrank: got any server discovery yet? |
| 04:09:08 | BZFlag | yeah, I'm going to OLS this year. |
| 04:09:49 | BZFrank | no, nothing in this respect. The client must now the hostname, but I think of a scheme similar to the current bzflag gameserver |
| 04:09:58 | BZFrank | know = now ;) |
| 04:10:07 | BZFrank | too far away from Germany ;) |
| 04:12:25 | BZFrank | For the first release however there will be only server & client. I need some feedback on the game anyway to finetune the gameplay and the networking |
| 04:12:44 | BZFlag | I'd stongly suggest an http based approach. have the url just a cgi script. I get all kinds of reports from folks that can't get to the current bzf list server. |
| 04:13:28 | patlabor221 | capP: Who says I'm not allready on IRC :) |
| 04:13:55 | BZFrank | I'd like to keep any TCP connection out of the play, so the playserver -> gameserver connection is just based on the FXFConnection (reliable UDP based). |
| 04:14:03 | captain_proton | hi there |
| 04:14:10 | patlabor221 | how's it goin? |
| 04:14:41 | captain_proton | good, good |
| 04:14:56 | BZFlag | BZFrank: hmm. I suppose if udp is absolutly required for play, there is not much reason for http lists if you won't be able to connect. |
| 04:15:27 | patlabor221 | so are you still talking about an "object" based world? or something else? |
| 04:15:41 | BZFrank | it is nice to have the gameserver just answering to http requests however, so anyone with a browser can lookup the current game state |
| 04:16:02 | captain_proton | patlabor221: its still kind of hazy |
| 04:16:14 | BZFrank | and for the gameserver the issue is also non critical, as is for connection clients (before they enter a game) |
| 04:16:20 | captain_proton | patlabor221: obstacles are convex polyhedra, but visual geometry will probably be anything |
| 04:16:39 | captain_proton | however, the xml parser allows you to reference other files in the current one as a resource |
| 04:16:50 | patlabor221 | cp: well still that's object based. your not going to portals or BSPs or antyhing |
| 04:17:03 | captain_proton | nono |
| 04:17:04 | captain_proton | polygons |
| 04:17:16 | patlabor221 | polys or tris? |
| 04:17:41 | captain_proton | no clue |
| 04:18:11 | patlabor221 | how far in the future is this? days, weeks, months? |
| 04:18:24 | captain_proton | if i had to guess i'd imagine there would be polygons |
| 04:18:33 | BZFlag | BZFrank: what ever happened to your bzf stats code? it was perl scripts yes? I could set that up on list.bzflag.org if you would like to send it to me. |
| 04:19:00 | captain_proton | and it will be a while |
| 04:19:03 | patlabor221 | cp: why XML for the models not something more standard like ObJ? |
| 04:19:17 | BZFrank | it was a bit of a hack, but I can send it to you, no problem. two perl scripts and one shell script, run by cron |
| 04:19:28 | patlabor221 | cp: then just use XML to define the postions and colison volumes |
| 04:19:38 | BZFlag | BZFrank: sure. hacks are great if they work. ;-) |
| 04:19:45 | BZFrank | hehe ;) |
| 04:20:02 | BZFrank | still tim@rikers.org ? |
| 04:21:06 | captain_proton | patlabor221: because the xml stuff is there (?) |
| 04:21:22 | BZFlag | BZFrank: yep. or tim@lineo.com |
| 04:21:33 | BZFlag | or tim@bzflag.org even. ;-) |
| 04:21:44 | patlabor221 | cp: so is obj, it an open format, takes like 10 min to make a parser. |
| 04:21:54 | BZFrank | ok, I wrote it down |
| 04:22:05 | patlabor221 | cp: it's like your gonnna have to make your own model def inside the xml |
| 04:22:13 | captain_proton | patlabor221: but how easy is it to convert that into the bzflag gstate? |
| 04:22:39 | patlabor221 | cp: consitering it's just tris, kinda easy. |
| 04:22:47 | BZFrank | pat: a tad longer, but there are open readers already, no need to reinvent the wheel |
| 04:22:59 | patlabor221 | exaclty |
| 04:23:05 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 04:23:20 | captain_proton | but does it support particle systems? ;) |
| 04:23:30 | patlabor221 | you can still keep your XML to define the bojects in space and there properties |
| 04:23:33 | BZFrank | I used the milkshape format in p2501 but the loader can be extended to most anything |
| 04:23:41 | patlabor221 | I know |
| 04:24:10 | patlabor221 | I find that milk shape is a bit heavy for simple stuff |
| 04:24:21 | patlabor221 | nice thing about obj is EVERYONE read/writes it |
| 04:24:31 | patlabor221 | on a ton of OSes |
| 04:24:42 | BZFrank | captain: you do particles not in a gerneric 3d format anyway, too much dynamic - I worked at least 3 days on my A-Bomb explosion effect |
| 04:24:44 | BZFrank | ;) |
| 04:25:27 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 04:25:35 | patlabor221 | yeah, put the partice system pramaters in the XML map file, but when it comes to things like buldings and barieers, have them refrence a standard model file |
| 04:25:39 | captain_proton | all we need is someone to insult rotated/elevated bases now and we're 3/3 =) |
| 04:25:56 | patlabor221 | you have to do the work to get it into BZ no mater what you do, might as well make it easy |
| 04:26:13 | BZFlag | patlabor221: patches welcome. ;-) |
| 04:26:13 | patlabor221 | no those are nice :) |
| 04:27:04 | patlabor221 | what does bx use for it's visabilty calcs? octree? |
| 04:27:13 | patlabor221 | sorry bz not bx |
| 04:27:33 | captain_proton | bzflag doesn't do occlusion culling |
| 04:27:37 | BZFrank | nothing, it does not do any culling as far as I know |
| 04:27:42 | patlabor221 | offft |
| 04:27:54 | BZFlag | patlabor221: again, patches welcome. ;-) |
| 04:28:01 | captain_proton | it does frustum culling |
| 04:28:08 | patlabor221 | god it's been a forever since I've been in there |
| 04:28:27 | patlabor221 | not since the DirectX resoulution switch code |
| 04:28:36 | patlabor221 | and the icon :) |
| 04:29:36 | BZFrank | why does 1.8 not use something like SDL as base, it does make life much easier and would clean up the code while maintaining portability |
| 04:29:49 | captain_proton | http://icculus.org/~vogon/bz-sdl.html |
| 04:29:56 | BZFrank | (SDL does all the screen setup stuff for me) |
| 04:30:49 | BZFrank | well, not quite informative this page, don't you think? ;) |
| 04:31:23 | captain_proton | hmm thats a 404 |
| 04:31:33 | vogon_jeltz | oh, gotta put the BZ-SDL page back up. |
| 04:31:35 | patlabor221 | wish I could find the model for that little tank I put in that picture, proalby still on my mac |
| 04:31:38 | vogon_jeltz | just a sec. I'll point you to the patch. |
| 04:33:32 | vogon_jeltz | http://icculus.org/~vogon/bz-sdl.diff |
| 04:33:57 | vogon_jeltz | make all MCONFIG=SDL to get the SDL stuff compiled in. |
| 04:34:30 | BZFrank | ok |
| 04:34:39 | BZFlag | BZFrank: 1.8 could move to SDL. have not really talked about it yet. |
| 04:35:29 | patlabor221 | sounds like there still is a lot of design work for 1.8 still to do. |
| 04:35:50 | BZFlag | patlabor221: options are still open, yeah. |
| 04:35:52 | captain_proton | "a lot" doesn't begin to describe it |
| 04:36:28 | BZFlag | heh |
| 04:36:31 | patlabor221 | how much are you looking at changing? |
| 04:36:47 | BZFlag | well let's see. game play might still be similar. ;-) |
| 04:37:00 | patlabor221 | sure you don't want to call it 2.0? |
| 04:37:10 | captain_proton | patlabor221: that depends on how much we get done |
| 04:37:20 | BZFlag | likely be 2.0, we'll see. |
| 04:37:22 | BZFrank | make microsoft version jumps, must be at least 6.0 ;) |
| 04:37:41 | patlabor221 | and put enterprise editon after it |
| 04:37:45 | captain_proton | BZFlag 2003! |
| 04:37:55 | captain_proton | home, pro, enterprise |
| 04:37:58 | BZFrank | now there is the beef! |
| 04:38:19 | captain_proton | with a $90 expansion pack to change your cursor |
| 04:38:43 | BZFlag | that's "Mega Tank Combat 2003" to you. |
| 04:38:49 | patlabor221 | wow if you paied that mutch to use a control pannel, damn |
| 04:38:50 | BZFrank | or bzflag .NET edition, you can make a fotune selling books alone ;) |
| 04:39:01 | captain_proton | certify people |
| 04:39:09 | captain_proton | imagines it... bzflag.themes.org |
| 04:39:23 | BZFrank | certified tankers hehehe |
| 04:39:27 | patlabor221 | .net is soo misunderstood |
| 04:39:29 | BZFlag | quick, grab bzflag.net before the price goes up |
| 04:39:49 | BZFrank | oma got bzflag.de that must be enough ;) |
| 04:39:56 | patlabor221 | but VC7.0 does suck |
| 04:40:29 | BZFrank | so does VC6.0, I have ditched the compiler and moved to the Intel C++ compiler suite, better code, faster also |
| 04:40:30 | patlabor221 | it's wonderfull when you can write code that crashes the compiler |
| 04:40:40 | captain_proton | oh BZFlag - what dns thing did you do to make an alias to an alias? |
| 04:40:50 | BZFrank | really? ;) |
| 04:40:57 | captain_proton | i tried CNAME'ing irc.opensplits.net to OPN but it only worked locally |
| 04:41:28 | patlabor221 | BZF: yeah had some template stuff four dynamic arrays that would kill the compiler in 7 |
| 04:42:05 | BZFlag | hmm. |
| 04:42:07 | BZFrank | mircosoft way of telling you 'don't use templates, dude' ;) |
| 04:42:20 | patlabor221 | odd thing was it worked in 6 |
| 04:42:27 | captain_proton | BZFrank: shaddup, obj-c boy |
| 04:42:43 | patlabor221 | obj c seems nice, need more support tho |
| 04:43:11 | patlabor221 | and I don't feel like re-writing a complete CAD/CAM system in it |
| 04:43:27 | BZFrank | I have a bunch of code here that does not compile correctly on 6.0 even with the latest patches/Service packs, funny stuff happens when you turn on optimization |
| 04:43:53 | captain_proton | goes to shower |
| 04:44:05 | patlabor221 | yeah we had to tweak our optimisations to get em right |
| 04:44:12 | BZFlag | captain_proton: works for me. just added irc.bzflag.org and I think it'll work for you. |
| 04:44:45 | BZFrank | at least Ocj-C does not suck half as muc has C++ does. But I can write in any language Obj-C, wait for p2501 ;) |
| 04:45:20 | patlabor221 | but back to the world format, are you talking about changing awway from the "Flat world, with a bunch of stuff all over the palce that you can't go through" idea? |
| 04:46:30 | patlabor221 | or just expand what the "stuff" in the world can be? |
| 04:47:25 | BZFrank | why change the format? bzflag worlds aren't that complex |
| 04:47:43 | patlabor221 | I know, that's why I'm wondering what all this talk of XML is about |
| 04:48:02 | BZFrank | xml would be good for complex messages but otherwise it may be overkill |
| 04:48:33 | patlabor221 | if I was gonna extend it,I would just make the objects refrence external files for there geo, and allow adtional options, like color,texture, and more rotations. |
| 04:49:26 | patlabor221 | xml is nice beccasue it's a standard, you don't have to teach it to anyone, just tell them to get a book |
| 04:49:50 | patlabor221 | but in this case I don't see what it will buy ya |
| 04:50:58 | patlabor221 | unfortonatly the current BZ objects can not be represneted as just geometric models, the texture coords are dynamic based on the objects size. |
| 04:51:34 | patlabor221 | and then there is the subdivison issue for the shot glows |
| 04:51:51 | patlabor221 | allthigh you could take care of that wiht projected textures |
| 04:52:05 | BZFrank | what is this issue ? |
| 04:52:46 | BZFrank | the textures on the walls for the shot lightnings? |
| 04:53:15 | patlabor221 | if I recall coreclty to get the glow on the buildings, the geo for the sides of boxes and pyramids is is dynamicly split to get better light shading |
| 04:53:18 | patlabor221 | or did that change? |
| 04:53:44 | BZFrank | don't think so, but it is a long time since I looked that up |
| 04:53:50 | patlabor221 | me too |
| 04:54:02 | patlabor221 | last time i was in there was before it was open source |
| 04:54:24 | patlabor221 | but I recall a dyanic subdivision of the faces |
| 04:54:42 | patlabor221 | at the time multipass texturing was too slow to do a projected texture |
| 04:55:17 | BZFrank | true |
| 04:56:28 | patlabor221 | isn't there a way to put BZ in wireframe mode? |
| 04:56:49 | BZFrank | possible, never tried it ;) |
| 04:57:05 | BZFrank | would spoil steath ;) |
| 04:57:43 | patlabor221 | well if you turn off texturing you can see the glow on the extra verts that are created. |
| 04:59:20 | patlabor221 | there are ways to do this on regular poly soups |
| 04:59:32 | patlabor221 | but now a projected texture would poably be fine. |
| 05:00:04 | patlabor221 | also if your looking into extrnal model files, there is the issue of LOD |
| 05:00:17 | patlabor221 | right now there is a seperate model for each of the LODs |
| 05:00:36 | BZFrank | but why? using regular lightings work out pretty well for the outdoor scenes, just have a selection method that coordinates which light is important for the effects and be sure your model normals are correct... |
| 05:00:58 | patlabor221 | proalby just get awway with a progesive mesh collapse thing. |
| 05:01:18 | patlabor221 | if par of your model is a BIG ass triangle ( like the side of a building) |
| 05:01:27 | patlabor221 | you won't get a good spread |
| 05:01:35 | patlabor221 | from a close light source |
| 05:01:39 | BZFrank | ok, but hen again you could modify the model for that |
| 05:02:21 | patlabor221 | you could pre subdivede evertying, but then when there is no light close your using more polys then you need to |
| 05:02:28 | patlabor221 | glows are interesting. |
| 05:02:37 | patlabor221 | now simple light maps would do it |
| 05:02:52 | patlabor221 | but that makes it harder for you to change the liging for time of day |
| 05:03:15 | patlabor221 | but then you could radiosity light the sucker and it would look niiiiccceee |
| 05:03:51 | BZFrank | ok, ok - but I prefer framerate in this case to nice looking pictures ;) |
| 05:04:13 | patlabor221 | I guess it all dpends on what you want to give up to get arbitrary geo |
| 05:04:16 | patlabor221 | yeah |
| 05:04:23 | patlabor221 | well a light map would not be slow |
| 05:04:46 | patlabor221 | you precompute the radiosity once for the entire scene at world creation time. |
| 05:04:52 | patlabor221 | this is how the FPSs do it |
| 05:05:20 | patlabor221 | and you'd get inter object shadows ( as long as they don't move ) |
| 05:05:21 | captain_proton | returns |
| 05:05:26 | BZFrank | no, cannot do that, in my engine that world is not constant, each client can change the world also buildings may move ;) |
| 05:05:39 | patlabor221 | yeah for you you need something like shadow volumes |
| 05:05:52 | patlabor221 | and projected texture for glows |
| 05:06:01 | patlabor221 | those would be fast on modern HW |
| 05:06:07 | BZFrank | yep |
| 05:06:27 | patlabor221 | but the BZ world is static |
| 05:06:33 | captain_proton | not necessarily |
| 05:06:51 | patlabor221 | as it is now everything in the map is static isn't it? |
| 05:06:58 | BZFrank | well, stencil shadow does well enough and for the lower end hardware even simple projected shadows do. |
| 05:07:00 | captain_proton | right now, yes |
| 05:07:08 | BZFrank | yep, in bzflag is is possible to do this |
| 05:07:34 | patlabor221 | are you looking at allowing variable world sizes? |
| 05:07:38 | captain_proton | one of the things that will likely change is the ability to define mobile objects |
| 05:07:42 | captain_proton | for certain |
| 05:07:59 | patlabor221 | do the moible ones need to be lit the same as the static ones? |
| 05:08:14 | patlabor221 | or can they be lit the same as player objects |
| 05:09:07 | patlabor221 | you can precompute light maps for the statics, and use projected textures for the things that move |
| 05:09:29 | vogon_jeltz | is engaged in unilateral nuclear war with Korea. |
| 05:09:33 | patlabor221 | but I don't know what kind of visual affect your going for |
| 05:10:59 | BZFrank | we shall see what all comes into 1.8... |
| 05:11:35 | BZFrank | but for now I am heading for my bed catching some hours of sleep |
| 05:11:44 | captain_proton | 'night frank |
| 05:11:48 | BZFrank | 7:15 am here after an all nighter |
| 05:12:00 | patlabor221 | offta, get some rest man. |
| 05:12:00 | BZFrank | bye everyone |
| 05:12:29 | BZFrank | cu |
| 05:13:29 | patlabor221 | cap, is it known if you will at least stay with a flat world that has objects in it? |
| 05:13:52 | captain_proton | there has been some talk of the ability to define mobile objects |
| 05:14:22 | patlabor221 | well still that can fit into the world wiht stuff idea |
| 05:14:47 | captain_proton | we're not moving to BSP's or anything like tat |
| 05:14:55 | patlabor221 | ok |
| 05:15:00 | patlabor221 | nor heighfields? |
| 05:15:25 | captain_proton | non |
| 05:15:29 | captain_proton | no* |
| 05:15:45 | patlabor221 | ok, then it just sounds like new objects with new paramaters |
| 05:16:19 | patlabor221 | so an editor would still have a list of stuff, and tools to put the stuff somewhere in the world and set it's paramaters |
| 05:16:38 | Widget | hihihi, MrApathyCream. |
| 05:16:55 | MrApathyCream | heya |
| 05:17:18 | captain_proton | patlabor221: likely |
| 05:17:51 | captain_proton | Widget: ok if i dcc you a new flag.bzg? i'm not sure if its improved or not |
| 05:18:00 | patlabor221 | cap: will if it didn't your talking about a major rewrite of evertying, from rendering to pysics |
| 05:18:54 | captain_proton | patlabor221: rendering has already been rewritten |
| 05:19:17 | patlabor221 | so you have a format for the display Geo? |
| 05:19:24 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 05:19:30 | patlabor221 | that I'd like to see |
| 05:20:13 | patlabor221 | is there a preliminary map file too? or is it all in the same file? |
| 05:20:14 | captain_proton | you can look through the data dir at the various .bzg files |
| 05:20:22 | captain_proton | nothing has been done with maps yet |
| 05:20:34 | Widget | captain_proton: Sure. |
| 05:21:07 | captain_proton | this one waves horizontally |
| 05:21:15 | Widget | OK. |
| 05:21:44 | Widget | Where is flag.bzg? |
| 05:22:07 | captain_proton | data |
| 05:22:29 | captain_proton | it looks sweet when you're looking down on the flags but straight ahead the flags look static |
| 05:23:10 | Widget | Does this wave only sideways or both vertically and horizontally? |
| 05:23:19 | captain_proton | only horizontally |
| 05:24:16 | Widget | Ah, it looks much better. |
| 05:24:29 | Widget | Much better. |
| 05:24:43 | patlabor221 | got a viewer for these things? or just look at em in game? |
| 05:24:44 | captain_proton | i think a vertical component (small) should be added, for when you're looking straight ahead |
| 05:25:17 | captain_proton | patlabor221: bzgview will view them but it may be hard to get a good angle/lighting scenario in it |
| 05:25:55 | patlabor221 | how are you planing on handaling LOD? precomputed in the file or dynamic? |
| 05:26:29 | captain_proton | its probably going to be in the file |
| 05:26:44 | captain_proton | there's no LOD handling right now |
| 05:26:53 | patlabor221 | you culd just do a progresive mesh |
| 05:27:42 | captain_proton | that only works if you have discrete meshing to begin with |
| 05:28:25 | patlabor221 | well you have your highest LOD in the file, and it' can be broken down into a mesh |
| 05:28:32 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 05:28:56 | captain_proton | but that doesn't work when your file is full of a bunch of small pieces |
| 05:28:57 | patlabor221 | it's all gotta be trinagles by the time it hits the hardware anyay |
| 05:29:17 | patlabor221 | it can, you just need to know that you may need to ditch entire peices |
| 05:29:34 | patlabor221 | it would be a specialised variation of a progresive mesh |
| 05:29:55 | patlabor221 | but it dosn't look like your dealing with large tri counts anyway |
| 05:30:01 | patlabor221 | so you may not even need LOD |
| 05:30:44 | patlabor221 | are you doing your animations for stuff like the flag with vertex animation? |
| 05:31:03 | captain_proton | yupyup |
| 05:31:22 | captain_proton | the <animate> node linearly interprets between each set of vertices |
| 05:31:36 | patlabor221 | yeah, just like a quake model |
| 05:31:51 | patlabor221 | you have provisions for model heirarchys? |
| 05:31:54 | captain_proton | at the moment, the flag model is the only one to use vertex animation |
| 05:32:20 | captain_proton | you can nest geometry nodes |
| 05:33:34 | patlabor221 | well it's defnatly more complex |
| 05:33:39 | patlabor221 | but also more powerfull |
| 05:33:47 | patlabor221 | there is a lot that can be done in there |
| 05:33:51 | captain_proton | yup |
| 05:33:57 | patlabor221 | dono how easy it will be to make them tho |
| 05:34:10 | captain_proton | if you compile with DEBUG_DUMPWORLD (i think thats the symbol), it will dump a .bzg of the world you visit |
| 05:34:44 | patlabor221 | I din't see a BZG for the buildings |
| 05:35:03 | captain_proton | that doesn't exist yet because the new model/world formats haven't been finalized |
| 05:35:32 | captain_proton | once crs finishes the physics the new world stuff will come soon |
| 05:35:33 | patlabor221 | yeah it seems all you have is the stuff that isn't scaled |
| 05:36:34 | patlabor221 | were you planing on just modifying your BZEdit to make these new files eventuyaly? |
| 05:37:05 | BZFlag | we should build some translation tools to import basic meshes |
| 05:37:21 | patlabor221 | that wouldnot be too hard |
| 05:37:35 | patlabor221 | but I'm more concerned about the world layout |
| 05:38:13 | patlabor221 | hmmm maybe this could all be done as a set of GMax scripts. |
| 05:38:23 | captain_proton | GMax? |
| 05:38:32 | patlabor221 | free version of 3ds max |
| 05:38:36 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 05:38:47 | patlabor221 | developers write format packs for it |
| 05:38:51 | captain_proton | i wasn't planning on modifying bzedit... |
| 05:38:57 | captain_proton | i was thinking of writing something new |
| 05:39:43 | patlabor221 | sounds like what ever is writen needs to be masivly extensible, the XML lets you do anything realy |
| 05:39:49 | captain_proton | yup |
| 05:40:26 | patlabor221 | if the client dosn't have all the BZG files will the server send it to them? |
| 05:41:17 | captain_proton | none of that has been done yet |
| 05:41:40 | captain_proton | what we're thinking is that the world has a set of 'resources' associated with it - being models, textures, etc |
| 05:41:50 | patlabor221 | right now the clent never gets the actualy workd file does it? |
| 05:41:56 | BZFlag | patlabor221: what does gmax lack from 3ds ? |
| 05:41:56 | captain_proton | each resource is identified by its MD5 - if the client doesn't have it in its cache, it will request it |
| 05:42:13 | BZFlag | is is just a plugin without the rest of the normal 3ds interface? |
| 05:42:19 | patlabor221 | gmax only daves in it's own format |
| 05:42:41 | BZFlag | but everything else is there!? |
| 05:42:42 | patlabor221 | and requires the use of the "game packs" to export to specific game formats |
| 05:43:03 | patlabor221 | the interface is a little striped down, and it dosn't have all the same plugins |
| 05:43:12 | patlabor221 | people are using it to make quake 3 levels now |
| 05:43:42 | BZFlag | sweet. I may actually find a windows box to work on for a day and check it out. |
| 05:43:44 | patlabor221 | the interface is very simliar to the max interface |
| 05:43:52 | patlabor221 | it's kinda cool |
| 05:44:09 | BZFlag | my registered 3ds is gathering dust around here someplace. |
| 05:44:15 | patlabor221 | as is mine |
| 05:44:24 | BZFlag | could not justify the upgrade fees. |
| 05:45:02 | patlabor221 | I ended up just using the modeler in the project at my day job |
| 05:45:15 | patlabor221 | it's nice to have full source to a parasolids based modler :) |
| 05:45:36 | BZFlag | quick GPL it. ;-) |
| 05:45:40 | patlabor221 | I wish |
| 05:45:52 | patlabor221 | don't think my boss would be too hapy bout that |
| 05:45:57 | BZFlag | heh |
| 05:46:14 | patlabor221 | and it's horible code |
| 05:46:21 | patlabor221 | over 10 years old |
| 05:46:28 | BZFlag | "but boss, I included GPL codefile 'foo.c' so I had to release the rest under GPL" won't fly? |
| 05:46:45 | captain_proton | new prettier flag.bzg |
| 05:47:12 | patlabor221 | I did think of breaking out the modeler into it's own app one of these days |
| 05:47:33 | patlabor221 | no texturing but full CSG |
| 05:47:52 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 05:47:58 | captain_proton | supposedly bz regions are full CSG |
| 05:48:09 | patlabor221 | regons? |
| 05:48:15 | patlabor221 | the shadows? |
| 05:48:26 | captain_proton | no - 1.8 adds the concept of regions |
| 05:48:33 | patlabor221 | in what way? |
| 05:48:43 | patlabor221 | 2d or 3d? |
| 05:48:44 | captain_proton | lemme look up everything they can do |
| 05:48:48 | captain_proton | 3d |
| 05:48:58 | patlabor221 | so volume definitions |
| 05:49:09 | captain_proton | ydah |
| 05:49:14 | patlabor221 | based on primitives? |
| 05:49:18 | patlabor221 | for colisions? |
| 05:49:40 | captain_proton | ahh found the email |
| 05:49:42 | captain_proton | no |
| 05:50:11 | patlabor221 | if not prims, then surfs, or teselations? |
| 05:50:24 | captain_proton | based on primitives |
| 05:50:37 | patlabor221 | what are they used for? |
| 05:50:43 | captain_proton | but its for spawn, flag capture, flag spawn, etc |
| 05:50:49 | patlabor221 | ohh I see |
| 05:50:51 | patlabor221 | ok |
| 05:51:03 | patlabor221 | so your never gonna render them |
| 05:51:10 | captain_proton | i guess they are used for obstacles too |
| 05:51:11 | captain_proton | my bad |
| 05:51:20 | captain_proton | but yeah |
| 05:51:22 | captain_proton | invisible |
| 05:51:30 | patlabor221 | wonder how they will be stored |
| 05:52:23 | captain_proton | some xml entity no doubt |
| 05:52:35 | patlabor221 | no not that, in memory |
| 05:52:59 | patlabor221 | if it's a csg of prims will the reslut be a tree or what? |
| 05:53:01 | captain_proton | oh i've got all that stuff lying around here somewhere |
| 05:53:18 | patlabor221 | like winged edge? |
| 05:53:46 | patlabor221 | or just a list of simple volumes and a pinch of point in volume tests |
| 05:54:54 | captain_proton | each region is a list of RegionShapes - a shape can be a boolean expression of two others |
| 05:55:00 | captain_proton | tree in some respect |
| 05:55:19 | patlabor221 | intersting |
| 05:55:45 | captain_proton | each shape defines a few methods - isInside(point), intersect(ray) |
| 05:55:53 | patlabor221 | proalby should put all the obstical ones in an octree to find the one to test fasted |
| 05:56:06 | captain_proton | i think thats actually done |
| 05:56:11 | patlabor221 | good |
| 05:56:18 | patlabor221 | otherwise it would be slower then piss |
| 05:56:33 | captain_proton | theres a RegionManager that can do a fast spatial search |
| 05:56:44 | patlabor221 | this is gonna be one pain in the ass editior. |
| 05:56:50 | captain_proton | yup\ |
| 05:57:16 | patlabor221 | your not gonna see a lot of new content if it's too hard to make worlds |
| 05:57:29 | captain_proton | thats why we have to make a good editor |
| 05:57:56 | patlabor221 | ot get all these concepts across, it's not gonna be easy |
| 05:58:11 | patlabor221 | your gonna need to see these regions in the editor |
| 05:58:34 | captain_proton | perhaps we should take a simcity2k-like view and have 'layers' |
| 05:58:56 | patlabor221 | well filters like that are allways good |
| 05:58:57 | captain_proton | visibile geometry, obstacles, bases, player spawn areas, etc |
| 05:59:12 | patlabor221 | just teaching people how to use it is gonna be fun |
| 05:59:19 | captain_proton | nods |
| 05:59:26 | patlabor221 | they can't just make a model and slap it in the world and go |
| 05:59:39 | captain_proton | well, they can |
| 05:59:40 | patlabor221 | they need to pick the best colision volume for it |
| 05:59:46 | captain_proton | if the model specifies a collision volume |
| 05:59:56 | patlabor221 | well then making the models is harder |
| 06:00:04 | captain_proton | not significantly harder |
| 06:00:13 | patlabor221 | since there arn't realy tools for defineing your regions |
| 06:00:31 | patlabor221 | they can't import the colion volume, they will have to use custom tools |
| 06:00:42 | captain_proton | true |
| 06:02:11 | patlabor2211 | may not be optimal for all models, but it would work |
| 06:02:42 | patlabor2211 | or something like nested spheres |
| 06:03:25 | captain_proton | we'll need to make some sort of tool for keeping track of CSG trees |
| 06:03:26 | captain_proton | and write a tutorial on how to use it |
| 06:03:26 | captain_proton | hmm looks like crs has an xml format for regions already |
| 06:03:55 | captain_proton | looks like regions can be made up out of boxes and pyramids (surprise surprise) |
| 06:04:06 | patlabor2211 | no spheres? |
| 06:04:18 | captain_proton | nope |
| 06:04:22 | captain_proton | at least not right now |
| 06:04:22 | patlabor2211 | wow |
| 06:04:29 | patlabor2211 | ok he's doing plane tests |
| 06:04:40 | patlabor2211 | just making a bsp outa them |
| 06:04:50 | patlabor2211 | then insert the pont or ray into the tree |
| 06:05:18 | captain_proton | makes sense to me |
| 06:05:22 | captain_proton | fast & simple |
| 06:05:34 | patlabor2211 | would be nice if it could take an apritrary bsp |
| 06:05:42 | patlabor2211 | you can make a bsp out of a mesh |
| 06:06:47 | patlabor2211 | sounds like you could just make the world a bsp, your almost there |
| 06:07:00 | patlabor2211 | if your doing bsp colisions allready |
| 06:07:15 | patlabor2211 | just store the triangles in the leaves of the tree |
| 06:07:51 | patlabor2211 | and use them for rendering |
| 06:08:36 | captain_proton | object collisions are more than just a bsp search |
| 06:08:55 | patlabor2211 | well yeah |
| 06:09:14 | patlabor2211 | but you could use that search to help rendering |
| 06:09:29 | captain_proton | how so? |
| 06:09:49 | captain_proton | it already does frustum culling |
| 06:09:52 | patlabor2211 | if you tie the goe to the colion tree |
| 06:10:07 | patlabor2211 | you now have a tree that tells you how the trinagels are connected |
| 06:10:17 | patlabor2211 | and you can interset that with the view planes |
| 06:10:29 | patlabor2211 | sorry geo not goe |
| 06:10:43 | patlabor2211 | make a tree out of the trees as it were |
| 06:11:30 | patlabor2211 | but it wouldn't work if your just using a tree of prims |
| 06:11:50 | patlabor2211 | you would base the colision trees of the geo |
| 06:12:05 | patlabor2211 | and be doing poly acurate colisions. |
| 06:12:26 | patlabor2211 | should even work on concaves |
| 06:12:40 | patlabor2211 | but would be slower then your prim method |
| 06:13:28 | patlabor2211 | but it sounds like it all still needs to be figured out |
| 06:13:55 | patlabor2211 | I won't work on my edittor then, not untill you guys have a format and feature set |
| 06:15:06 | patlabor2211 | I'll work on my other secret project then :) |
| 06:15:14 | captain_proton | heh |
| 06:15:28 | MrApathyCream | Mr Wiggles? |
| 06:15:34 | captain_proton | thats WIGGLY |
| 06:15:40 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 06:15:49 | MrApathyCream | i flipped a coin... lost again |
| 06:16:05 | captain_proton | perhaps you need a different coin |
| 06:16:53 | MrApathyCream | p'raps |
| 06:19:10 | MrApathyCream | Chestal been 'evangelizing' today? |
| 06:19:19 | captain_proton | just a little |
| 06:19:23 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 06:26:10 | Widget | Mac OS X is better than Lunix, captain_proton. Face it. |
| 06:26:29 | captain_proton | <base team="%s"> |
| 06:26:29 | captain_proton | <shape base="true" spawn="true"> |
| 06:26:29 | captain_proton | <box> |
| 06:26:29 | captain_proton | <translate x="%f" y="%f" z="%f"/> |
| 06:26:29 | captain_proton | <rotate x="0" y="0" z="1" a="%f"/> |
| 06:26:30 | captain_proton | <size x="%f" y="%f" z="%f"/> |
| 06:26:32 | captain_proton | </box> |
| 06:26:34 | captain_proton | </shape> |
| 06:26:36 | captain_proton | <safety x="%f" y="%f" z="%f"/> |
| 06:26:40 | captain_proton | </base> |
| 06:28:00 | Widget | captain_proton: Do you admit it? |
| 06:28:55 | captain_proton | no |
| 06:29:30 | Widget | captain_proton: What (besides the fact that Lunix is open source) makes it better than OS X? |
| 06:29:57 | jpablo | apt-get :-P |
| 06:30:14 | captain_proton | Widget: everything is where you might expect |
| 06:30:17 | Widget | jpablo: Only on Debian. And you have that on OS X now as well. |
| 06:30:22 | captain_proton | Widget: no spaces in directory names |
| 06:30:30 | vogon_jeltz | Widget: you can actually run the GUI on a box that you didn't just purchase. |
| 06:30:35 | Widget | captain_proton: Where you might expect. And you can have space in directory names. |
| 06:30:47 | captain_proton | Widget: you can. but system directories should -not- have that |
| 06:30:57 | captain_proton | when i look at a unix box i expect it to have a /etc |
| 06:31:02 | captain_proton | when i looked at osx, it didn't |
| 06:31:04 | jpablo | Widget: let's talk when i can run mac os x on my dream cast. |
| 06:31:20 | Widget | jpablo: Why would you %Iwant to? |
| 06:31:23 | Widget | Hm. |
| 06:31:37 | jpablo | Widget: cause you can ! |
| 06:31:43 | Widget | captain_proton: So? That's not an advantage of Lunix. |
| 06:31:52 | captain_proton | Widget: but its a disadvantage of osx |
| 06:31:58 | Widget | captain_proton: How so? |
| 06:32:07 | captain_proton | Widget: where the hell do you put your config files? |
| 06:32:12 | captain_proton | oh thats right |
| 06:32:16 | captain_proton | nobody knows |
| 06:32:19 | Widget | captain_proton: In the System Folder.... |
| 06:32:20 | captain_proton | because you have to use the GUI |
| 06:32:32 | Widget | captain_proton: You can use the command line. |
| 06:32:55 | captain_proton | Widget: have you ever tried to configure an osx box through the command line? |
| 06:33:06 | Widget | captain_proton: I haven't needed to. Have you? |
| 06:33:34 | captain_proton | but you couldn't |
| 06:33:48 | Widget | I could tto. |
| 06:33:49 | captain_proton | so it makes remote administration of osx workstations a pain in the ass unless you use a vnc client or something |
| 06:33:50 | patlabor2211 | OS installs that acualy work are a benifit |
| 06:33:57 | Widget | I could too! |
| 06:34:50 | captain_proton | osx did some nice things in the kernel, but they spent way too much time making it pretty, and not nearly enough making it functional |
| 06:35:04 | Widget | captain_proton: And Mac OS X does have an etc. |
| 06:35:19 | captain_proton | Widget: not the one i looked at |
| 06:35:21 | Widget | captain_proton: I just did a bbedit /etc/httpd/httpd.conf |
| 06:35:29 | Widget | captain_proton: All my configuration files are right there. |
| 06:35:37 | MrApathyCream | sheesh, not this again |
| 06:36:00 | MrApathyCream | did you get the framerate above 15 yet? |
| 06:36:08 | captain_proton | hah! |
| 06:36:18 | Widget | captain_proton: Hm? |
| 06:36:33 | captain_proton | points at MrApathyCream - answer him |
| 06:37:10 | MrApathyCream | (X) (0) |
| 06:37:11 | Widget | MrApathyCream: 38, usually. On an iBook. |
| 06:37:18 | patlabor2211 | well have fun playing the "my wang is biger then yours" game guys. |
| 06:37:34 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: what was icculus doing here? |
| 06:37:48 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: he wanted to get in on the Linux v. OSX discussion. |
| 06:37:54 | captain_proton | ah |
| 06:37:57 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 06:38:16 | captain_proton | Widget: what resolution/video card? |
| 06:39:45 | Widget | captain_proton: Resolution, 1280x1024. I know not about the video card. |
| 06:40:03 | captain_proton | 38fps @ 1280...real impressive there |
| 06:40:33 | vogon_jeltz | is away: stuff. |
| 06:40:39 | Widget | This is on an old, old laptop. |
| 06:41:07 | captain_proton | ibook isn't old |
| 06:41:15 | captain_proton | tires of this |
| 06:41:20 | Widget | This is the one after the original iBook series. |
| 06:41:24 | jpablo | Widget: so you play on macosx ? |
| 06:42:27 | Widget | jpablo: Ja. |
| 06:42:48 | jpablo | well, nobody can be perfect. |
| 06:42:53 | jpablo | just me :-P |
| 06:44:03 | MrApathyCream | Widget: how do you target, just curious? |
| 06:44:15 | Widget | MrApathyCream: What do you mean, target? |
| 06:44:22 | MrApathyCream | gm target |
| 06:44:30 | Widget | MrApathyCream: I use 'w'. |
| 06:44:41 | Widget | MrApathyCream: But I usually don't play on flag servers. |
| 06:44:52 | Widget | MrApathyCream: You should know that I can't use the mouse.. I don't even have a mouse. |
| 06:45:38 | MrApathyCream | dang, keyboard movement is nasty |
| 06:45:52 | Widget | Well, it isn't any better on a Windows laptop. |
| 06:46:42 | MrApathyCream | didn't say it was |
| 06:47:07 | captain_proton | trick> usb mouse |
| 06:47:43 | Widget | I'm too poor to get one. |
| 06:47:55 | captain_proton | steal it |
| 06:48:23 | Widget | From you? |
| 06:48:27 | captain_proton | no |
| 06:48:29 | captain_proton | from MrApathyCream |
| 06:48:40 | Widget | His door has a bigger lock. |
| 06:48:41 | MrApathyCream | hey, i'm on SS! |
| 06:49:27 | MrApathyCream | heh, think it's widget-image time, no? |
| 06:49:44 | Widget | Ha. |
| 06:50:11 | Widget | Dinner. Bye. |
| 06:51:27 | jpablo | bye [Gtk]Widget |
| 06:52:11 | jpablo | or it's a CocoaWidget now ? |
| 06:52:11 | captain_proton | hah |
| 07:09:09 | sadista | Ritchie ? |
| 07:09:44 | ritchie_ | hi |
| 07:09:48 | ritchie_ | gtg to school sorry |
| 07:09:52 | ritchie_ | spk later |
| 07:09:57 | sadista | bye |
| 07:10:03 | ritchie_away | apologies abt yesterday |
| 07:10:38 | captain_proton | ick |
| 07:10:45 | captain_proton | ImageFile doesn't have a write() |
| 07:13:04 | captain_proton | i guess snapping will still save to .raw |
| 07:28:06 | captain_proton | cvs commits |
| 07:29:54 | captain_proton | BZFlag: for future reference, snapping should do gamma correction and save as PNG |
| 08:17:50 | Chestal | ree |
| 12:50:21 | iLLf8d | night all |
| 12:55:16 | Chestal | hi OoOoO |
| 12:58:38 | taD_ | :P |
| 12:59:08 | OoOoO | hi chestal |
| 12:59:31 | OoOoO | chestal: still in shock here, what happened yesterday to the moles? |
| 12:59:49 | Chestal | we lost :-| |
| 13:00:00 | OoOoO | did you play? |
| 13:02:54 | Chestal | akira+Comanche+me, yes |
| 13:03:36 | taD_ | hey |
| 13:03:39 | OoOoO | aaaah, no lupi or tank,hmmmm, interesting. |
| 13:03:54 | taD_ | about that Project 2501 game.... |
| 13:03:58 | OoOoO | There were some strange results yesterday. Actually, it was good to see. |
| 13:04:11 | taD_ | who made it? |
| 13:05:07 | OoOoO | tad: BZFrank=Onkel Frank |
| 13:05:31 | taD_ | hmm |
| 13:05:44 | OoOoO | tad: go to ezboard, he has a post there about it. |
| 13:05:49 | taD_ | ok |
| 13:05:57 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 06:25:24) |
| 13:07:01 | Chestal | OoOoO: lupi and tankmann were not here yesterday. But still, our last match against the Zees was with the same Moles, and we won 11-1 :-) |
| 13:07:25 | OoOoO | very strange |
| 13:07:34 | Chestal | OoOoO: The Zees played good yesterday, I needed >20 minutes to really get intothe game (almost no warm up for me) and Comanche had gfx problems |
| 13:07:41 | Chestal | he only saw the positinal lights of tanks |
| 13:07:57 | taD_ | lol |
| 13:08:02 | Chestal | when it was 2:1 for the Zees I was running with their flag and it looked good, but Comanche shot me, he thought I was a Zee :-) |
| 13:08:11 | taD_ | hehe |
| 13:08:28 | Chestal | at about 25:00 it was 5:1 |
| 13:08:57 | Chestal | in the last 5 minutes I played better, but there was not enough time then,only for 5:3 |
| 13:09:35 | OoOoO | oh well, you guys are still on top, in orange. |
| 13:09:43 | Chestal | but we're still leading, and now that we've lost, it might be easier to find opponents |
| 13:10:11 | Chestal | there's still the issue of at nam vs. compsoc to resolve |
| 13:10:26 | Chestal | did you follow what happened? |
| 13:10:27 | OoOoO | missed that , lag issues? |
| 13:11:31 | Chestal | I guess they initially played on the British compsoc server which was a bad idea. The Czech guys had bad lag there |
| 13:11:36 | Chestal | at nam won like 6:0 or something |
| 13:12:00 | Chestal | then they replayed on ducati with everyone having lag <60ms |
| 13:12:57 | Chestal | but one of the compsocs had a crash or somethign 18minutes into the game (score was 3-3), leaving the compsocs with 2 players |
| 13:13:20 | Chestal | then there was some confusion, some palyers paused,others continued to play and then the ref stopped the game |
| 13:14:28 | OoOoO | well, did both teams agree to the results of the first match before the started the 2nd one? |
| 13:15:24 | Chestal | not really. compsocs complained that they lost due to lag, so they wanted to do the rematch on ducati |
| 13:15:42 | Chestal | I'd say for the next matches: lag should be tested in warm-up before countdown starts |
| 13:15:52 | Chestal | then peopel either say lag is ok and play, or they don't |
| 13:16:00 | Chestal | no complainging about lag after that |
| 13:16:21 | OoOoO | or within a certain time of the match, say the first 5 mins. or before anyone scores. I agree, if |
| 13:16:40 | OoOoO | you play the whole match complaining about it, but keep playing, thats silly. |
| 13:17:29 | OoOoO | either agree to stop playing early, or just deal with it. |
| 13:17:46 | Chestal | ult played vs. Frogs on m0nkey's serevr, lag was very bad |
| 13:17:54 | Chestal | frogs lost, IMHO due to lag |
| 13:18:00 | Chestal | but Valoche accepetd the result |
| 13:18:05 | OoOoO | yeah, dont think we can use his server. |
| 13:18:14 | Chestal | and two ULTs using 56k |
| 13:18:38 | OoOoO | yeah, even for US people his server is laggy once it gets full. |
| 13:19:49 | OoOoO | Did I hear some discussion with the HIS folks yesterday regarding their lag issues. |
| 13:20:24 | taD_ | Chestal: did you put your bot code in e5? |
| 13:26:41 | Chestal | tad: no |
| 13:27:09 | Chestal | OoOoO: well, yes, the Zees complained a little about this and rightly so :-). HIS are too good to be allowed to lag, but it's ok |
| 13:29:09 | Chestal | OoOoO: the question now is what to do about the 1.5 at nam-compsoc matches |
| 13:29:44 | Chestal | OoOoO: btw. did you trie newest E5 from ApathyCream? |
| 13:30:10 | OoOoO | well, i would say as to the first one. The two teams should have come to some agreement on it BEFORE starting another match... |
| 13:30:31 | OoOoO | either, dont count it, or count it. I cant believe that wouldnt have come up. |
| 13:30:44 | OoOoO | So IMHO if they didnt do that it should be counted. |
| 13:30:52 | Chestal | I'm not 100% sure, maybe they agreed to try on ducati and see it as a replay, so ignore first result and try again |
| 13:30:59 | OoOoO | As for the second match it seems like it should just be forgotten |
| 13:31:41 | OoOoO | I would first let the two leaders figure it out. Maybe start a post about it saying they need to resolve it |
| 13:31:59 | OoOoO | who was reffing do you know? |
| 13:32:06 | Chestal | dinah |
| 13:32:17 | Chestal | they did a lot of discussin about it on the channel here |
| 13:33:00 | OoOoO | hmmm, well if the two leaders cant figure it out he can throw in his opinion. But let the leaders come up with some conclusion first. |
| 13:33:15 | OoOoO | even if the conclusion is they cant agree. |
| 13:33:36 | OoOoO | As for e5, funny you ask i was just downloading it!!! |
| 13:33:48 | OoOoO | i was on here last night talking to Captain Proton |
| 13:33:56 | OoOoO | he said i shouldnt be using f5 |
| 13:34:24 | OoOoO | Do you know is the time display not showing in observor fixed in this e5 version. |
| 13:34:25 | Chestal | yes, most of f5 is in e5 now |
| 13:34:38 | Chestal | probably, it was fixed in an earlier e5 |
| 13:34:47 | Chestal | I'm, not usign the current one |
| 13:34:48 | OoOoO | That was a problem for us yesterday. We had 4 players for the 1st time. |
| 13:35:02 | OoOoO | the exchanging players thing is a pain |
| 13:35:08 | Chestal | yes, it is |
| 13:35:21 | Chestal | I discourage subs |
| 13:35:23 | OoOoO | i spent most of my time focusing on that!!!! |
| 13:35:25 | Chestal | too much problems |
| 13:35:37 | Chestal | it's betetr to change players between matches |
| 13:35:55 | OoOoO | we also had problems getting back on to the server after exchanges |
| 13:36:23 | Chestal | it's a problem when all obserevr slots are used, then the player who wants to join as observer cannot come in |
| 13:36:37 | OoOoO | Are you feeling ok with everything, not overwhelmed? |
| 13:36:51 | Chestal | it was a little too chaotic yesterday |
| 13:36:51 | OoOoO | yes, that was the issue. |
| 13:37:07 | OoOoO | could that limit be set differently for each color? |
| 13:37:28 | Chestal | hmm, well, I guess it wouldn't be impossible, haven't thought about it |
| 13:37:38 | Chestal | for normal games, the current obserevr limit is ok |
| 13:37:50 | Chestal | maybe I could allow much more than 4 observers |
| 13:38:04 | OoOoO | so limit it on purple and blue, but no limit for the red green. dont think non team people would join red or green do you? |
| 13:38:09 | Chestal | observersincrease the bandwidth needed by the server linearly, of course |
| 13:39:05 | Chestal | I still think that substitutions should only be done if necessary |
| 13:39:14 | Chestal | another problem is that it might give you an advantage |
| 13:39:32 | OoOoO | Yeah, we were very careful with the exchanges yesterday. |
| 13:39:37 | Chestal | for example, in our matc against the zees yesterday, ajax rejoined very early to reset his score (from warm-up) |
| 13:40:06 | Chestal | I was just goign to attack a Zee carrying our flag, he was close to their base. Ajax popped up, thus stopping me from attackign the flag carrier |
| 13:40:11 | Chestal | this can happen with exchanges, too |
| 13:40:42 | OoOoO | what happened to the reset? at the begining? dont remember that yesterday? |
| 13:40:49 | OoOoO | did that change/ |
| 13:41:06 | Chestal | ehm, what do you mean? |
| 13:41:26 | Chestal | the /countdown commands resets team scores and puts palyers back to their base |
| 13:41:43 | Chestal | player scores cannot be reset by the server, they're not important, but some peopel liek to have them start at 0 |
| 13:41:55 | OoOoO | aah, ok it didnt seem like it yesterday. |
| 13:42:08 | OoOoO | i must not have joined before it was started |
| 13:42:30 | Chestal | you only did one match against the frogs? |
| 13:42:34 | OoOoO | probably just me, i was focusing on who was coming in next and for who :) |
| 13:43:09 | OoOoO | yeah, I couldnt get another team to play us yesterday right after our match. It was too chaotic here. |
| 13:43:15 | Chestal | their was much talk yesterday about this match and that match, I lost orientation |
| 13:43:19 | OoOoO | Then my teammates started leaving. |
| 13:43:39 | Chestal | akira and comanche (and me) waited several hours to get a match going |
| 13:43:54 | OoOoO | Its hard for us at that time of the day on the weekend, its right in the middle of the afternoon!!! |
| 13:43:59 | Chestal | I think it might be a good idea, if only one player per team would speak onthe channel to arrange matches |
| 13:44:23 | OoOoO | i agree. |
| 13:44:27 | Chestal | OoOoO: well, later than 22:00 UTC is too late for most Europeans |
| 13:45:00 | OoOoO | i know, there in lies the problem. I;m just saying my team wont/cant hang around that much waiting it seems. |
| 13:45:18 | OoOoO | Some sort of sign up sheet thing would be nice |
| 13:45:43 | Chestal | sign up sheet? Valoche wanted to put some kidn of calendar up where teams could enetr matches |
| 13:45:53 | Chestal | then people would jsut have to really show up in time |
| 13:46:23 | OoOoO | yeah, same thing, have time slots in there, a team puts their name down. then they are committed |
| 13:46:30 | Chestal | most US teams didn't play yet, or not much |
| 13:46:34 | OoOoO | if they dont show its forfeited |
| 13:46:56 | OoOoO | i know, i was talking to MEQ and GUGLY? , maybe we can play at night during the week. |
| 13:47:06 | OoOoO | they/we are all US players |
| 13:47:19 | OoOoO | that GUGLY team is pretty strong i think |
| 13:47:36 | Chestal | hmm, really, let me check |
| 13:48:04 | Chestal | hmm, I can only remember having played against jpablo |
| 13:48:07 | OoOoO | the calendar, sign up thing would avoid all the discussion type things here. You either have a match signed up or you dont |
| 13:48:10 | Chestal | I guess he lags a little onducati |
| 13:48:19 | OoOoO | drs kicked my tail one day |
| 13:48:47 | Chestal | northern alliance has 14 |
| 13:49:25 | OoOoO | i saw that, and i've only heard of 2 of them i think. |
| 13:51:20 | OoOoO | The calendar/sign up sheet would also avoid server/time conflicts |
| 13:51:49 | OoOoO | if you think about it, we could have 4 or so matches posted on the challenge board all for the same time... |
| 13:52:10 | OoOoO | and of course the best server is ducati, and with only 2 spots that just doesnt work. |
| 13:52:36 | OoOoO | everyone shows up here then all chaos breaks lose. |
| 13:54:57 | OoOoO | alright, time to take the kids outside. beautiful day here. Talk to you later. |
| 13:55:45 | taD_ | lol |
| 14:06:00 | Chestal | ok, I was actualyl busy working for some minutes here :-) |
| 14:09:24 | Skipp | does anyone know Mr. Apathy Cream's website adress |
| 14:12:20 | Skipp | hey quol |
| 14:13:36 | Chestal | http://www.chesco.com/~dbrosius/BZFlag/BZFlag.html |
| 14:13:41 | Chestal | google knows it, too |
| 14:13:47 | Skipp | thanks |
| 14:27:55 | taD_ | um |
| 14:28:07 | taD_ | is this http://www.chesco.com/~dbrosius/BZFlag/MAC.jpg really him? |
| 14:58:02 | [TeA|TrEE]_ | HeLLo |
| 15:31:59 | taD_ | bo |
| 15:32:09 | | teatree is nothing but a clapper-clawed ass-full of knotty-pated guano. |
| 15:32:09 | taD_ | ibot insult teatree |
| 15:54:55 | captain_proton | ugg |
| 15:55:01 | ritchie_away | hiya |
| 15:55:07 | captain_proton | i feel like someone hit my sinuses with a sledgehammer |
| 15:55:12 | ritchie_away | ohd ear |
| 15:55:15 | ritchie_away | dear * |
| 15:55:17 | ritchie_away | hay fever? |
| 15:55:38 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 15:55:52 | ritchie_away | what do you call it in america? |
| 15:56:09 | captain_proton | same |
| 15:56:13 | ritchie_away | oh right |
| 15:56:17 | ritchie_away | i thought u had some name |
| 15:56:47 | captain_proton | mmm not really |
| 15:56:50 | ritchie_away | do ppl in america follow their national football (or should i say soccer ;-)) team's progress in the world cup |
| 15:56:50 | ritchie_away | ? |
| 15:58:23 | captain_proton | some do |
| 15:58:28 | captain_proton | not many |
| 15:58:44 | ritchie_ | right |
| 15:58:48 | ritchie_ | thought so |
| 16:01:40 | taD_ | lol |
| 16:01:53 | taD_ | not me |
| 16:01:57 | taD_ | :P |
