| 02:48:42 | captain_proton | slaps vogon_jeltz |
| 02:48:56 | vogon_jeltz | slaps captain_proton |
| 04:21:22 | iLLf8d | hey all when I make in the top cvs path |
| 04:21:42 | iLLf8d | it builds lucifer:/home/neener/bzflag/bin# ls |
| 04:21:42 | iLLf8d | bzfls bzfrelay bzfs |
| 04:21:47 | iLLf8d | no bzflag? |
| 04:21:50 | iLLf8d | whats up with that? |
| 04:24:58 | vogon_jeltz | haha |
| 04:25:05 | vogon_jeltz | sounds like the bzflag build is borken |
| 04:26:04 | iLLf8d | collect2: ld returned 1 exit status |
| 04:26:04 | iLLf8d | make[3]: *** [../../bin/bzflag] Error 1 |
| 04:26:05 | iLLf8d | make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/neener/bzflag/src/bzflag' |
| 04:26:05 | iLLf8d | cd bzfrelay; make targets |
| 04:26:22 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:26:36 | iLLf8d | there any way to build it solely? |
| 04:27:37 | vogon_jeltz | cd src/bzflag, pipe make to a file, and /exec -o grep it here for "***" |
| 04:28:01 | iLLf8d | uhm |
| 04:28:10 | vogon_jeltz | OK, how about this: |
| 04:28:11 | iLLf8d | I wiped out source path |
| 04:28:20 | iLLf8d | updating cvs again and starting over heh |
| 04:28:26 | vogon_jeltz | lmfao |
| 04:28:28 | iLLf8d | had done it before you said that sorry |
| 04:28:29 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 04:28:39 | iLLf8d | so I do what |
| 04:28:42 | iLLf8d | ./configure |
| 04:28:50 | iLLf8d | then make linux-i386 |
| 04:28:55 | iLLf8d | then make |
| 04:29:13 | vogon_jeltz | cd src/bzflag; make > make_results; cat make_results | grep "***" |
| 04:29:35 | iLLf8d | don't I have to start a few steps back though? |
| 04:29:40 | iLLf8d | if not i'll just do what you said |
| 04:30:02 | vogon_jeltz | there's no configure step |
| 04:30:18 | iLLf8d | last time I tried it that way it bombed heh |
| 04:30:26 | iLLf8d | bzflag told me to back it up and run ./configure I think |
| 04:30:29 | vogon_jeltz | it's just make linux-i386; cd src/bzflag; make > make_results; cat make_results | grep "***" |
| 04:30:54 | vogon_jeltz | there's no freaking such thing as configure in the BZFlag source tree! :) |
| 04:31:32 | iLLf8d | hmm maybe it was the other make then |
| 04:31:46 | iLLf8d | l'm doing what you said btw heh |
| 04:31:54 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 04:31:55 | iLLf8d | last time he had me cd ../../ and do something |
| 04:31:56 | iLLf8d | so |
| 04:32:05 | iLLf8d | can check his chatlogs if need be |
| 04:32:16 | iLLf8d | lucifer:/home/neener/bzflag# make linux-i386; cd src/bzflag; make > make_results; cat make_results | grep "***" |
| 04:32:16 | iLLf8d | make[1]: Entering directory `/home/neener/bzflag/configs' |
| 04:32:16 | iLLf8d | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/neener/bzflag/configs' |
| 04:32:16 | iLLf8d | make[1]: Entering directory `/home/neener/bzflag' |
| 04:32:16 | iLLf8d | Configured. Following targets available: |
| 04:32:17 | iLLf8d | make build programs |
| 04:32:19 | iLLf8d | make man build man pages |
| 04:32:21 | iLLf8d | make all build all the above |
| 04:32:23 | iLLf8d | make package build an installable package from the above |
| 04:32:25 | iLLf8d | make clean remove intermediate files |
| 04:32:27 | iLLf8d | make clobber remove everything built by make all |
| 04:32:29 | iLLf8d | make pristine remove everything except original files |
| 04:32:31 | iLLf8d | make tarball makes pristine then creates source tarball |
| 04:32:33 | iLLf8d | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/neener/bzflag' |
| 04:32:37 | iLLf8d | looks like its haning |
| 04:32:39 | iLLf8d | lemme check ps to see if anything is happening |
| 04:32:42 | vogon_jeltz | oh, duh... you have to run make in the top-level directory :P |
| 04:33:15 | iLLf8d | actually something finished |
| 04:33:16 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:37:16 | iLLf8d | /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a(glthread.o): In function `_glthread_SetTSD': |
| 04:37:16 | iLLf8d | glthread.o(.text+0xa8): undefined reference to `pthread_setspecific' |
| 04:37:16 | iLLf8d | collect2: ld returned 1 exit status |
| 04:37:16 | iLLf8d | make: *** [../../bin/bzflag] Error 1 |
| 04:37:22 | iLLf8d | I think thats the relevant stuff |
| 04:37:54 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... your GL libraries are borken |
| 04:37:59 | iLLf8d | lucifer:/home/neener/bzflag/src/bzflag# cat make_results | grep "***" |
| 04:38:00 | iLLf8d | /usr/bin/g++ -D_BSD_SOURCE -D_POSIX_SOURCE -DHALF_RATE_AUDIO -DXF86VIDMODE_EXT -DXIJOYSTICK -I/usr/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -Wall -W -fno-exceptions -fno-rtti -m486 -DVERSION=10705003 -DROBOT -DINSTALL_DATA_DIR=\"/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/bzflag/data\" -I../../include -DNDEBUG -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -fnonnull-objects -fexpensive-optimizations -o ../../bin/bzflag MainWindow.o ControlPanel.o World.o SceneBuilder.o |
| 04:38:00 | iLLf8d | .o BackgroundRenderer.o RadarRenderer.o HUDRenderer.o HUDui.o ShotPath.o ShotStrategy.o Region.o RenderNode.o Player.o playing.o LocalPlayer.o RemotePlayer.o RobotPlayer.o DeadPlayer.o ServerLink.o PlayerLink.o KeyMap.o daylight.o texture.o resources.o sound.o bzflag.o HUDDialog.o menus.o -L/usr/X11R6/lib ../../lib/libNet.a ../../lib/libCommon.a ../../lib/libObstacle.a ../../lib/libPlatform.a ../../lib/libGLKit.a ../../lib/libS |
| 04:38:02 | iLLf8d | /lib/libGeometry.a -lGLU -lGL -lXxf86vm -lXi -lXext -lX11 -lm |
| 04:38:06 | iLLf8d | ah |
| 04:38:07 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:38:10 | iLLf8d | looks into that |
| 04:38:26 | iLLf8d | which libraries |
| 04:38:30 | iLLf8d | what are they called? |
| 04:38:42 | vogon_jeltz | /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a |
| 04:39:11 | iLLf8d | what version do I want? |
| 04:39:14 | vogon_jeltz | what type of vidcard are you using? |
| 04:39:18 | iLLf8d | *apt* searching for package name should be fully lowercase! |
| 04:39:19 | iLLf8d | *apt* Debian Package Listing of 'libGL' (15 shown; 22 total): libglade-gnome0 ;; libglade-gnome0-dev ;; libglade-perl ;; libglade0 ;; libglade0-dev ;; libgladexml-perl ;; libglib1.2 ;; libglib1.2-dbg ;; libglib1.2-dev ;; libglib1.3 ;; libglib1.3-dev ;; libglib1.3-doc ;; libglide2 ;; libglide2-dev ;; libglide3. |
| 04:39:21 | iLLf8d | nvidia |
| 04:39:26 | iLLf8d | gefoce2mx 32mb |
| 04:39:35 | vogon_jeltz | hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah |
| 04:39:37 | iLLf8d | I think I installed 1.2 dev |
| 04:39:52 | iLLf8d | 1.3dev? |
| 04:39:55 | vogon_jeltz | go visit #nvidia :) |
| 04:40:11 | iLLf8d | if you mean videocard drivers |
| 04:40:15 | iLLf8d | I installed them correctly |
| 04:40:23 | iLLf8d | that was a while ago |
| 04:40:28 | iLLf8d | had to do a kernel patch etc... |
| 04:40:33 | vogon_jeltz | not according to BZFlag, you didn't ;) |
| 04:40:43 | iLLf8d | I haven't done it recently |
| 04:40:57 | iLLf8d | I followed nvidias instructions worked fine |
| 04:41:02 | iLLf8d | till this last build heh |
| 04:41:06 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 04:41:19 | vogon_jeltz | upgrade your nVidia drivers and see if the problem persists |
| 04:41:23 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:41:32 | iLLf8d | guess I should up the kernel too then |
| 04:41:35 | iLLf8d | i'm at 2.4.9 now |
| 04:41:38 | iLLf8d | 2.4.12 is out |
| 04:41:44 | vogon_jeltz | yeh |
| 05:31:21 | HerrMoose | argh where is BZFlag? |
| 05:31:30 | vogon_jeltz | not here ;) |
| 05:31:46 | HerrMoose | i want to ask him about the CTF stuff, the flagbuilding stuff, and the radar stuff |
| 05:31:47 | vogon_jeltz | not in #tuxscreen, either |
| 05:31:52 | | BZFlag was last seen on #bzflag 1 days, 20 hours, 32 minutes and 42 seconds ago, saying: well, now I want to sleep. cya [Sat Oct 20 09:59:10 2001] |
| 05:31:52 | HerrMoose | ibot, seen BZFlag |
| 05:31:56 | HerrMoose | is captain_proton |
| 05:32:03 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 06:06:01 | captain_proton | got a reply from vogon_jeltz |
| 06:06:40 | vogon_jeltz | huh? |
| 06:55:38 | vogon_jeltz | is away: killing time for the next 40 minutes... be back at 1:36 AM GMT-7 |
| 06:55:47 | vogon_jeltz | oh, hi, Tim |
| 07:02:26 | captain_proton | tim!! |
| 07:02:37 | captain_proton | BZFlag: you there?? |
| 07:02:50 | vogon_jeltz | slaps BZFlag around... just a cardboard cutout |
| 07:02:56 | captain_proton | oops.... |
| 07:03:12 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: what i meant was, captain_proton got a reply from jamie zawinski |
| 07:03:23 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:03:26 | vogon_jeltz | cool |
| 07:03:46 | captain_proton | "You know, you're not gonna believe this, but my "notes" were actually a |
| 07:03:46 | captain_proton | whole bunch of sketches on paper, and I can't find them now! I could |
| 07:03:46 | captain_proton | have sworn they were in the bag with the clay I modeled the cube slices |
| 07:03:46 | captain_proton | from, but they aren't..." |
| 07:03:50 | vogon_jeltz | regarding what? |
| 07:04:05 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 07:04:39 | captain_proton | regarding the lament mode of xscreensaver |
| 07:04:51 | vogon_jeltz | ahh... |
| 07:04:54 | captain_proton | will cherish that email forever ;) |
| 07:05:07 | captain_proton | well, maybe not |
| 07:05:14 | vogon_jeltz | and your uber-l33t transpar-o mode? :P |
| 07:05:23 | captain_proton | transpar-o mode?!?!? |
| 07:05:43 | vogon_jeltz | the one where you'd render it to the root window with the background transparent :) |
| 07:06:02 | captain_proton | oh no - i wanted to add the few configurations of the box that he hadn't done |
| 07:06:02 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:10:18) |
| 07:06:17 | captain_proton | heh - first clan battle has occurred |
| 07:06:20 | vogon_jeltz | ahh, OK :) |
| 07:06:30 | captain_proton | hub (clan 'crap') challenged me to a one-on-one |
| 07:06:31 | captain_proton | 5/2 |
| 07:06:42 | vogon_jeltz | hehehe |
| 07:12:01 | captain_proton | i want to talk with tim |
| 07:13:51 | BZFlag | alright, I'm here, but I'm going to bed. ;-) |
| 07:13:59 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:14:09 | captain_proton | so tim: |
| 07:14:22 | captain_proton | any word about the flags-on-buildings stuff/CTF/radar? |
| 07:15:04 | BZFlag | not this weekend, no. |
| 07:15:17 | captain_proton | what about them making it into e4? |
| 07:17:10 | captain_proton | if i understand correctly, cobra fixed the radar bug |
| 07:17:31 | captain_proton | which, btw, i've never had a problem with |
| 07:17:41 | vogon_jeltz | *cough*and he needs to learn a bit more about the C++ standard*/cough* |
| 07:17:50 | captain_proton | cobra? |
| 07:17:56 | vogon_jeltz | yes |
| 07:18:07 | captain_proton | why do you say that? |
| 07:18:10 | vogon_jeltz | he said that arbitrary blocking of code is a bug, IIRC |
| 07:18:10 | BZFlag | heh, if I can get the radar patch working, it'll likely go it, yes. |
| 07:18:25 | captain_proton | BZFlag: what about vogon_jeltz's and my patches? |
| 07:18:27 | BZFlag | I will be working on fixing the 2 reported net bugs in this release |
| 07:18:27 | vogon_jeltz | arbitrary code blocking 0wnz j00 :) |
| 07:19:11 | BZFlag | The flag on building and elevated rotated bases would be next. |
| 07:19:14 | vogon_jeltz | because in C++, you can declare variables at the top of any code block, thus allowing you to declare variables closer to where you need them |
| 07:19:20 | vogon_jeltz | w00t :) |
| 07:19:57 | BZFlag | if you two can work up one patch that handles all that, and make flags on buildings (and hence elevated bases) a server command line option, I would include that. |
| 07:19:58 | vogon_jeltz | wishes Seattle had won Game 4 of the ALCS yesterday :/ |
| 07:20:16 | vogon_jeltz | argh... |
| 07:20:18 | captain_proton | when is the deadline for that? |
| 07:20:25 | vogon_jeltz | I don't wanna hack my code *again* :) |
| 07:20:27 | BZFlag | I think I don't want flags on pyramids. |
| 07:20:51 | vogon_jeltz | oh, man... I've gotta rewrite pretty much the whole patch :/ |
| 07:20:51 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: i can probably take care of it |
| 07:21:05 | BZFlag | no firm deadline yet except before xmas vacation (so everyone will have that time to DL and play ;-) |
| 07:21:07 | captain_proton | why no flags on pyramids? so many possibilities... |
| 07:21:24 | captain_proton | hmmm...but it would be nice to have it in the next week or so... |
| 07:21:26 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: thx... I'm busy with Tribes2 scripting, my MUD, and all the crap I'm throwing in 1.8 :) |
| 07:21:34 | BZFlag | I know, but I think it alters game play more that I want to do at this point. |
| 07:21:50 | captain_proton | considering that all that is really left is testing radar & hacking with the flags/CTF stuff |
| 07:21:58 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 07:22:27 | vogon_jeltz | also has to work on rewriting his flags-respawn-on-buildings stuff because he nuked his source tree and can't find the patch that he made :/ |
| 07:22:45 | BZFlag | picture a world with large pyramids. someone drops a flag half way down the side. |
| 07:22:59 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: that would be nice to include but isn't necessary |
| 07:23:00 | BZFlag | it does not lend itself to smooth play. |
| 07:23:03 | captain_proton | i see what you mean BZFlag |
| 07:23:25 | BZFlag | it will be odd enough with flags being dropped on real high transported only platforms. |
| 07:23:38 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:23:47 | captain_proton | we need decent collision detection and the ability to drive up the sides of pyramids |
| 07:23:52 | vogon_jeltz | I'd also like to write in a flag timeout |
| 07:24:04 | captain_proton | that would be sweet vogon_jeltz |
| 07:24:11 | BZFlag | captain_proton: if that was there, then flags on pyramids would make more sense, yes. |
| 07:24:14 | vogon_jeltz | so that flags that people are ignoring would respawn somewhere else :) |
| 07:24:31 | captain_proton | edits the 1.8 wishlist again |
| 07:25:44 | vogon_jeltz | would also like a couple more building shapes; cylinders and spheres (or just rough polygon equivalents) would be nice |
| 07:25:56 | captain_proton | edits the 1.8 wishlist again |
| 07:26:03 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:26:43 | vogon_jeltz | I also want fully-X10-compliant home management capabilities |
| 07:26:56 | vogon_jeltz | and it has to fit in 10K of RAM |
| 07:27:05 | BZFlag | see #TuxScreen for that one. ;-) |
| 07:27:11 | captain_proton | would like to turn off the lights by shooting the switch in bz |
| 07:27:20 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:27:29 | captain_proton | how many are left BZFlag? |
| 07:27:35 | BZFlag | over 800 now. |
| 07:27:35 | vogon_jeltz | I'd *really* like at least some rudimentary scripting stuff in 2.0 |
| 07:28:05 | captain_proton | i'm a little curious - how much do the components cost you? |
| 07:28:13 | BZFlag | building a cross-platform scripting engine is not high on my list. |
| 07:28:43 | vogon_jeltz | <BZFlag> We found them at the bottom of Cracker Jack boxes |
| 07:28:55 | BZFlag | captain_proton: 2 other groups get a slice of every sale. |
| 07:29:23 | captain_proton | would like to find a strongarm in his cracker jacks |
| 07:29:37 | vogon_jeltz | would, too ;) |
| 07:29:57 | BZFlag | I make like $25 on each sale? I've not done the math lately. |
| 07:30:24 | BZFlag | But my deal with the owners (they are on consignment) retricts the welling price. |
| 07:30:36 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 07:30:38 | BZFlag | the pieces would run you about $300 |
| 07:30:39 | captain_proton | must sleep |
| 07:30:39 | vogon_jeltz | s/welling/selling |
| 07:30:49 | vogon_jeltz | s/retricts/restricts |
| 07:31:06 | BZFlag | whacks the vogon_jeltz dictionary |
| 07:31:26 | captain_proton | goes to sleep |
| 07:31:30 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... by my count, I've had 6 cans of soda and 5 cans of lime-flavored sparkling water today :/ |
| 07:31:35 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: nn |
| 07:31:36 | captain_proton | 'night fellas |
| 07:34:01 | vogon_jeltz | is away: watching an infomercial for a set of titanium knives |
| 07:36:13 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz should be in the rest room, perhaps. |
| 07:48:21 | iLLf8d | anyone have some time to look at bzflag compile deuche? |
| 07:48:30 | iLLf8d | for lack of a better word |
| 07:48:47 | iLLf8d | I just updated my nvidia drivers now their broken heh |
| 07:48:53 | iLLf8d | gotta run agpgart instead |
| 07:48:55 | iLLf8d | bad idea |
| 07:49:18 | iLLf8d | or at least their broken in flag |
| 07:49:27 | iLLf8d | lemme check another opengl progie |
| 07:49:46 | iLLf8d | nope |
| 07:49:51 | iLLf8d | they bail with segfault |
| 07:50:37 | iLLf8d | do I need dri installed for nvidia in my linux kernel? |
| 07:50:57 | iLLf8d | they don't seem to have a listing in the make xconfig |
| 07:51:07 | iLLf8d | unless theres a generic catchall I missed |
| 07:51:14 | iLLf8d | seems they're all card specific |
| 08:01:46 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:27:33) |
| 08:02:15 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 08:02:34 | vogon_jeltz | if you have DRI installed, nVidia drivers *will* be broken |
| 08:08:14 | iLLf8d | I don't |
| 08:08:17 | iLLf8d | I left it out |
| 08:08:35 | iLLf8d | seems the agpgart works fine |
| 08:08:46 | iLLf8d | check this out |
| 08:09:44 | iLLf8d | vogon join #flood for a minute? |
| 08:09:48 | iLLf8d | puleaz |
| 08:09:52 | vogon_jeltz | no |
| 08:09:57 | vogon_jeltz | I don't have an nVidia card... |
| 08:10:03 | iLLf8d | ok |
| 08:10:06 | iLLf8d | and... |
| 08:10:10 | vogon_jeltz | I will be of little help ;) |
| 08:36:27 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 09:15:24 | iLLf8d | hey vogon you up? |
| 09:15:34 | iLLf8d | or anyone in the know |
| 09:15:42 | iLLf8d | xlibmesa-dev 4.1.0-7 |
| 09:15:43 | iLLf8d | mesag3+ggi-dev 3.4.2.1-3 |
| 09:15:43 | iLLf8d | mesag-glide2-dev 3.4.2.1-3 |
| 09:15:43 | iLLf8d | mesag-dev 3.4.2.1-3 |
| 09:15:43 | iLLf8d | libutahglx-dev 0.0-cvs-20010702-2 |
| 09:15:46 | iLLf8d | which of those do i want? |
| 09:27:48 | Chestal | hmm, I guess you should install the dev package that corresponds to the non-dev package you have installed |
| 09:27:58 | Chestal | I am using software rendering only here |
| 09:28:26 | Chestal | I have xlibmesa-dev and xlibmesa3 installed |
| 09:28:58 | Chestal | you might have to install different libs if you want 3d acceleration, I don't know |
| 09:33:06 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 09:33:16 | iLLf8d | I just want the package to build |
| 09:33:20 | iLLf8d | the driver works and runs |
| 09:33:26 | iLLf8d | just bzflag build crashes |
| 09:33:34 | iLLf8d | dri_glx.o(.text+0x297): undefined reference to `dlopen' |
| 09:33:35 | iLLf8d | dri_glx.o(.text+0x2a6): undefined reference to `dlerror' |
| 09:33:35 | iLLf8d | /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a(dri_glx.o): In function `Find_CreateScreenFuncs': |
| 09:33:35 | iLLf8d | dri_glx.o(.text+0x3a5): undefined reference to `dlsym' |
| 09:33:35 | iLLf8d | dri_glx.o(.text+0x3d2): undefined reference to `dlclose' |
| 09:33:35 | iLLf8d | /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a(dri_glx.o): In function `driDestroyDisplay': |
| 09:33:37 | iLLf8d | dri_glx.o(.text+0x41f): undefined reference to `dlclose' |
| 09:33:39 | iLLf8d | a bunch of cruft like that |
| 09:34:10 | Chestal | hmm |
| 09:34:37 | Chestal | at home I have it setup to use glx / dri |
| 09:41:57 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 09:42:06 | iLLf8d | I left dri support outta the kernel |
| 09:42:09 | iLLf8d | I did last time too |
| 09:42:22 | iLLf8d | nvidia doesn['t have an option for it like the other cards doo |
| 09:42:26 | iLLf8d | do even heh |
| 09:43:41 | iLLf8d | *apt* Debian Search of 'libGL.a' (2 shown): (/usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a) in devel/xlibmesa-dev ;; (/usr/lib/libGL.a) in devel/libutahglx-dev,devel/xlibmesa-dev,devel/mesag3+ggi-dev,devel/mesag-glide2-dev,devel/mesag-dev. |
| 09:43:52 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 09:43:56 | iLLf8d | i'll play with it |
| 10:03:33 | Ruudi | hi |
| 10:06:00 | iLLf8d | lo |
| 10:07:20 | Ruudi | a good divx server for you ftp.kpnqwest.ee/incoming |
| 10:07:41 | Ruudi | allways full but if you got good ftp client you can get it all |
| 10:37:20 | vogon_jeltz | is away: sleep |
| 10:43:45 | lupinator | howdy |
| 10:44:20 | Ruudi | hi |
| 10:48:57 | Chestal | hi |
| 10:49:12 | Chestal | lupi: do you think I should keep the lagdrop feature? |
| 10:49:41 | Chestal | lupi: Savage (Ajax) complained about it I think |
| 10:49:52 | Chestal | he always has a lag of 400-600ms, that sucks |
| 10:52:56 | lupinator | your lagwarning is at 500ms? |
| 11:05:12 | Chestal | lupi: 400ms |
| 11:09:45 | lupinator | looks like lagdrop isnt't that efficient |
| 11:11:25 | lupinator | we're picking on ajax often enough. i don't think you need an additional lagdrop |
| 11:18:00 | Chestal | hmm, but it is annoying to battle against him |
| 11:18:21 | Chestal | I will go with lagdrop for some days and see |
| 14:52:42 | captain_proton | hello HerrMoose |
| 15:09:24 | HerrMoose | hi |
| 15:09:35 | captain_proton | whats up? |
| 15:09:43 | HerrMoose | not a lot. |
| 15:09:49 | HerrMoose | email, homework etc... |
| 15:13:10 | captain_proton | heh... |
| 15:13:15 | captain_proton | is blasting Shostakovich |
| 15:14:15 | captain_proton | oh HerrMoose: you can tell your brother i'm d/l'ing andromeda 2x02 right now |
| 15:15:08 | HerrMoose | will do |
| 15:19:39 | captain_proton | hi BZFlag |
| 15:28:02 | captain_proton | argh stupid sourceforge |
| 15:39:20 | captain_proton | slaps cvs.sourceforge.net |
| 15:41:57 | HerrMoose | Shostakovich is my Shostakobitch. |
| 15:42:45 | HerrMoose | Come fix aaron's kernel |
| 15:44:43 | captain_proton | is he there? |
| 15:46:45 | HerrMoose | yep |
| 15:47:25 | captain_proton | what is wrong with it? |
| 15:48:01 | captain_proton | BZFlag, tell sourceforge to let me do a cvs diff |
| 15:48:58 | HerrMoose | modules config is hosed, and he does not remember how to revitalize it to its form Lexxian Zev hottness. |
| 15:49:04 | HerrMoose | former |
| 15:49:24 | captain_proton | heh |
| 15:49:29 | captain_proton | i'll be over there soon i guess |
| 16:26:07 | BZFlag | captain_proton: why won't it? |
| 16:26:58 | BZFlag | cvs diff -u works for me |
| 17:09:51 | Chestal | BZFlag: we really shoudl get rid of this generic INSTALL file, it's misleading |
| 17:14:38 | BZFlag | agreed. |
| 17:15:18 | BZFlag | done |
| 17:59:24 | BZFlag | Chestal: help bug fixed. ;-) |
| 18:04:46 | Chestal | BZFlag: great! :-) |
| 18:10:53 | BZFlag | starts a complete rebuild with the latest radar changes applied. |
| 19:00:20 | BZFlag | no segfault! |
| 19:46:26 | captain_proton | yipee! |
| 20:53:22 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 20:55:43 | captain_proton | kicks sourceforge to afganistan |
| 20:57:15 | captain_proton | BZFlag: why won't sourceforge let me finish a diff? |
| 20:57:27 | captain_proton | i get to win32 and i get a connection refused |
| 21:00:02 | BZFlag | no clue. works for me here, I'm doing it now. |
| 21:00:08 | captain_proton | bizzare... |
| 21:00:19 | captain_proton | so radar is in?? |
| 21:10:35 | Chestal | btw, wha tis the current state of Mac OS X port? |
| 21:14:21 | captain_proton | argh! sourceforge is still being bad |
| 21:15:18 | captain_proton | tries it from a different box |
| 21:18:19 | captain_proton | GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR |
| 21:19:03 | Chestal | what are you trying to do? |
| 21:19:14 | captain_proton | cvs diff -u |
| 21:22:47 | Chestal | hmm, doesn't seem to work for me either. Still waiting for the login prompt |
| 21:23:14 | captain_proton | i get about 1/2way through and it quits |
| 21:25:49 | BZFlag | radar is running here, I'm doing a few mods before I commit to CVS. |
| 21:26:00 | BZFlag | CVS_RSH=ssh |
| 21:26:41 | captain_proton | :D :D :D |
| 21:27:04 | captain_proton | it asks for my passwd, diffs 2 more things then gets an EBADF |
| 21:28:18 | captain_proton | (happy about the radar, not the cvs) |
| 21:33:41 | captain_proton | cranks up the Bloch |
| 21:35:07 | BZFlag | options menu in radar changes is crashing for me. |
| 21:36:22 | captain_proton | help menu crashes for me?!?! |
| 21:36:55 | BZFlag | yep. not ready yet.... |
| 21:37:01 | captain_proton | hmmm okee |
| 21:38:20 | captain_proton | might wanna fix that |
| 21:39:04 | captain_proton | finished his theory homework |
| 21:39:08 | captain_proton | :) |
| 21:46:48 | BZFlag | argh... /me hates the menu code. |
| 21:53:24 | captain_proton | so does everyone who has ever seen it |
| 21:54:16 | captain_proton | goes to class |
| 21:54:29 | captain_proton | no more rendering bug - it was an error on my part |
| 21:54:33 | vogon_jeltz | man, that quote can be taken *waaaaaay* out of context |
| 21:54:48 | captain_proton | heh |
| 21:57:40 | Chestal | BZFlag: is there any MacOS-X code in bzflag? |
| 21:57:52 | Chestal | BZFlag: a friend of mien started to port it some months ago but stopped workign on it |
| 21:58:01 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: OSX will be supported in 2.0 |
| 21:58:02 | Chestal | BZFlag: I guess he might continue his work soon |
| 21:58:06 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: if not sooner |
| 21:58:23 | Chestal | vogon_jeltz: well, as I said, my friend got it running withotu sound already |
| 21:58:25 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: we're moving to use the SDL and OpenAL APIs for video and audio, respectively |
| 21:58:30 | Chestal | just a few minor glitches still |
| 21:58:46 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: if he's interested, he can help out with 1.8 or 2.0 |
| 21:59:19 | Chestal | well, is there any work done for the future versions already? All I see is what is at sourceforge |
| 21:59:29 | Chestal | if there is any work done I woudl really like to see it published on sf |
| 21:59:38 | Chestal | and discusses |
| 21:59:41 | Chestal | ed |
| 21:59:43 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 22:00:10 | vogon_jeltz | I'm trying to kluge up some OpenAL audio stuff as fast as I can, but media is the ugliest code in the whole proggy |
| 22:00:16 | Chestal | well, ok |
| 22:00:32 | Chestal | things like this are non-critical in a sense that they do not affect gameplay |
| 22:00:43 | vogon_jeltz | yeah, precisely :) |
| 22:00:55 | vogon_jeltz | but they are critical when it comes to portability |
| 22:01:03 | Chestal | I would strongly like to see any gameplay related issues discussed though |
| 22:01:09 | vogon_jeltz | by my count, SDL covers 17 platforms |
| 22:01:25 | Chestal | what I disliek abut the curernt situation: we have sf mailing lists and the ezboard forum |
| 22:01:39 | vogon_jeltz | as soon as we open up the code for those other platforms, people will jump on and finish OpenAL (which only supports 4) |
| 22:01:41 | Chestal | so the community is kind of split up |
| 22:01:50 | Chestal | noone seems to be using the MLs anyway |
| 22:02:00 | Chestal | never heard of OPenAL |
| 22:02:03 | vogon_jeltz | well, sourceforge is supposed to be for people involved in the development effort |
| 22:02:05 | Chestal | is there an SDL port for Winxx? |
| 22:02:07 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: www.openal.org |
| 22:02:12 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: yes... |
| 22:02:15 | Chestal | there is a bzflag0user mailinglist, too |
| 22:02:23 | Chestal | and a developer forum at ezboard |
| 22:02:46 | Chestal | I kinda think that communication between the people involved with bzflag could be better |
| 22:02:55 | Chestal | this # has become more active lately, which is a good thing |
| 22:03:07 | Chestal | e.g. take Cobra1 or whatever his name is |
| 22:03:11 | vogon_jeltz | well, we communicate mainly through the artifact trackers on SF |
| 22:03:19 | vogon_jeltz | but the rest of the time, we use bzflag-dev |
| 22:03:39 | Chestal | he's obviously working on the robot code, haven't seen him psot to bzflag-dev, though |
| 22:03:53 | Chestal | also, I know that Onkel Frank started to work on the robots, too |
| 22:03:59 | vogon_jeltz | the only problem is that these are only stopgap solutions |
| 22:04:19 | vogon_jeltz | they'll all be trashed with the 2.0 rewrite |
| 22:04:29 | Chestal | hmm, not neccessarily |
| 22:04:39 | vogon_jeltz | 'course, we could minimize wasted work if we skipped 1.8 and 1.9, then just all started working on 2.0 |
| 22:05:08 | Chestal | Onkel Frank's approach should still work with a new version, of course it would have to modified, but any robots devleoped with the old version shoudl also work with newer version |
| 22:05:17 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 22:05:22 | Chestal | well, I've never seen a roadmap for 1.8 or 2.0 |
| 22:05:27 | vogon_jeltz | we're going to try to modularize bot code in 2.0 |
| 22:05:39 | Chestal | bot code must be eliminated from the standard client totally |
| 22:05:51 | vogon_jeltz | no, it mustn't |
| 22:05:54 | Chestal | I liked Onkel Frank's approach of a bot proxy\ |
| 22:05:58 | BZFlag | bot code needs to be tripped out and made it's own binary. patches welcome. |
| 22:06:13 | Chestal | this proxy conects to bzfs and does all the low level stuff |
| 22:06:35 | Chestal | bots are sperate processes which connect to the proxy and comminucate with it in a special robot protocol |
| 22:06:36 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: but how the hell are you supposed to train if the server you want to play on doesn't have bots? :/ |
| 22:06:44 | BZFlag | bzfbot would then be launchable from command line, client, or server. |
| 22:06:45 | Chestal | vogon_jeltz: so you could easily create bindign for lots of programming languages |
| 22:06:56 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: the one thing we don't need is another protocol |
| 22:07:15 | BZFlag | agreed. bots will just be players without GUIs. |
| 22:07:23 | Chestal | vogon_jeltz: it would be somethign totally differnt. The robot woudl comunicate things like 'turn right; over this protocol |
| 22:07:38 | vogon_jeltz | dude, we don't need to load down the proxy and server with CPU load |
| 22:07:49 | Chestal | but we need an easy to use and cheat-safe API foro robot developers |
| 22:07:55 | BZFlag | if the bot wants a protocol under it to hook to other languages, cool. |
| 22:08:00 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 22:08:14 | Chestal | curently robot development stinks |
| 22:08:16 | Chestal | I tried it |
| 22:08:23 | Chestal | we need a higher level API for robots |
| 22:08:25 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: he's talking about a robot network protocol that would abstract away all the low-level stuff |
| 22:08:39 | BZFlag | first make the bot a separate binary, then hack it up as you please. |
| 22:08:51 | vogon_jeltz | thinks Tcl is the solution |
| 22:08:57 | Chestal | I don't like tcl |
| 22:09:07 | Chestal | I really like the idea of supporting a bunch of languages |
| 22:09:10 | vogon_jeltz | because whenever the game would normally try to call a robot function, you can start an interpreter |
| 22:09:15 | BZFlag | there could be bot bindings for many languages. |
| 22:09:19 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: I'm talking about in the near term |
| 22:09:25 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: without requiring a rewrite |
| 22:09:40 | BZFlag | but bots on the server would be compiled binaries, not interpreters. |
| 22:09:46 | Chestal | you'll have to do a major rewrite to make bot development feasible |
| 22:10:07 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: not if you use Tcl and pass state variables to the bot code |
| 22:10:08 | Chestal | it's really a mess currently |
| 22:10:35 | Chestal | vogon: I think it's too much effort for such a short-living hack |
| 22:10:51 | vogon_jeltz | k, fine then |
| 22:11:25 | Chestal | but I guess first step is to modularize the network code inckuding handling of messages |
| 22:11:39 | Chestal | because that woudl be shared between player and robot client |
| 22:12:11 | Chestal | robot binary woudl then skip gui and add API which presents a more abstract view of the world |
| 22:12:45 | Chestal | bot's need a bunch of simple API calls, Onkel Frank started to work on such a thign months ago |
| 22:12:58 | Chestal | CobrA1 seems to do somehtign similar right now |
| 22:13:06 | Chestal | I don't liek to see the effort wasted |
| 22:13:39 | Chestal | I wouidl really liek to have smart bots, it was fun enhancing the standard bots |
| 22:13:47 | Chestal | but it was way too complicated |
| 22:17:01 | Chestal | we could do it now, but I guess we woudl end up having lots of duplicate code in bzflag and bzrobot source |
| 22:19:11 | Chestal | well, I have to gome home and to bed now. Cu |
| 22:22:14 | vogon_jeltz | bye |
| 22:23:12 | BZFlag | Chestal: that's fine for now. We can work on sharing more as we move down the road. |
| 22:23:37 | BZFlag | Note that I don't think there would be a lot, and the new bot would not be a "bot" to the server, but just another player. |
| 22:23:53 | BZFlag | so the player networking code could all be reused. |
| 22:24:13 | BZFlag | and the current bot net code will die (on both client and server ends) |
| 22:24:23 | Chestal | yes, I agree on that |
| 22:24:30 | Chestal | but just take playing.cxx |
| 22:24:38 | Chestal | a lot of what's in there woudl have to go into the bot code, too |
| 22:25:32 | Chestal | palying,cxx is way too big |
| 22:25:47 | Chestal | it's handling game logic and gui |
| 22:27:03 | Chestal | oh well, it;s not that easy. But good bots are the one big thign that I would really like to see |
| 22:27:28 | Chestal | I don't want to change much about the game except for this |
| 22:28:38 | BZFlag | I have other things I'd like to change, but I don't want to change the basic game play. |
| 22:29:05 | BZFlag | playing.cxx should be split up, and ripping out the bot code is a good time to do it. |
| 22:30:36 | Chestal | hmm, Onkel Frank just answered to my question regarding the robot development |
| 22:30:59 | Chestal | he stopped working on it back then. He's working on the new bz liek game P2501 |
| 22:31:09 | Chestal | seems like he will use s-lang as robot scripting language |
| 22:31:27 | Chestal | his advantage is that he can start by using a clean design |
| 22:32:09 | vogon_jeltz | plus, he's just chasing taillights |
| 22:34:09 | Chestal | well, there's nothing wrong with takign a good game idea and startign from scratch |
| 22:34:18 | Chestal | I still feel that I will stick with bzflag |
| 22:34:36 | Chestal | P2501 will probably get a lot of nifty gfx and stuff, but I really do not need it |
| 22:35:10 | Chestal | I liek bz for its simplicity an its balanced game play |
| 22:35:47 | Chestal | I'm no fan of custom bz worlds either. They're fun ok, but it's still best to battle on a simpel world |
| 22:35:54 | Chestal | I even got rid of the superflags on my server for now |
| 22:36:05 | vogon_jeltz | and I dislike P2501 for its failure to follow a traditional open-source model |
| 22:36:29 | Chestal | well, ok, we'll have to see how it fares once it reached beta |
| 22:36:41 | vogon_jeltz | they took ideas and possibly even code from us, and they're not releasing it until it reaches "an acceptable quality" |
| 22:36:47 | Chestal | I don't know exactly how bzflag evolved back then when chris was doing it |
| 22:37:00 | vogon_jeltz | read the history on the BZFlag website |
| 22:37:33 | vogon_jeltz | until 1.5 or so, Chris released it as freeware (but closed-source) |
| 22:38:59 | BZFlag | Chestal: have you tried rikers.org:6667 ? That's the king of customs world I like. |
| 22:39:21 | Chestal | BZFlag: most custom worlds are too complex for my client |
| 22:39:26 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: if they took code, that would be illegal. |
| 22:39:27 | Chestal | BZFlag: I'm using software rendering |
| 22:39:42 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: not as long as they release it under the GPL |
| 22:39:52 | Chestal | I don't think they will take any code |
| 22:40:12 | BZFlag | Chestal: rikers.org:6667 should not be too slow. the building count is about what a normal ctf world is. |
| 22:40:13 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: they would also have to preserve the copyright notices |
| 22:40:59 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: hmmm. that's true. if they do not give the binaries to anyone, then they do not have to release the source. |
| 22:41:35 | BZFlag | what is illegal is releasing versions without releasing source. (like the X fiasco) |
| 22:41:51 | vogon_jeltz | yep |
| 22:42:15 | BZFlag | well, releasing binaries without source and without contacting the copyright owner about getting a different license. |
| 22:42:53 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I think we need to talk about possibly closing up a set of client-server authentication modules |
| 22:43:11 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: if we want to go down that path |
| 22:43:39 | Chestal | BZFlag: ok, I tried it. it'k ok, but I have to jump. It gets sluggish for me when jumping, to be more exact, it's sluggish when big wals have to be drawn or when I am standing on top of a building |
| 22:46:06 | BZFlag | is that also true of normal ctf worlds? ie: how do they compare? |
| 22:46:40 | Chestal | it's true of all jumping servers, at least when I jump. I rarely play on jumping severs andif I do I refuse to jump most of the time |
| 22:47:00 | vogon_jeltz | has no clue why the heck this is true, but Voodoo5 HW rendering under Mesa 3.5 seems to be slower than software rendering |
| 22:47:03 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: I'd like to avoid that. I like having others maintain the ports and having everything available to anyone that wants to do a port. |
| 22:47:07 | vogon_jeltz | k |
| 22:47:08 | Chestal | does anyone play ctf nowadays? I have rarely seen it |
| 22:47:32 | Chestal | I have rarely seen good teamplay either |
| 22:47:35 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: I would like to add more cheat detection and nick tracking to bzfs/bzfls |
| 22:47:47 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: well, it could be passed around amongst developers, but we'd pare it down such that there were no compatibility problems and distribute it as an object file |
| 22:47:50 | BZFlag | I have seen good team play. |
| 22:47:56 | vogon_jeltz | has, too |
| 22:48:10 | Chestal | fixed teams or - if you like - clans woudl be fun |
| 22:48:15 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: you interested in joining the [meq] clan? |
| 22:48:27 | Chestal | I would liek to do a team tournament |
| 22:48:31 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: if so, meet in #meq and talk to cappy |
| 22:48:39 | Chestal | we need a more active community I guess |
| 22:48:54 | Chestal | I nearly exclusively play on ducati, don't knwo the people on other servers |
| 22:49:08 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: remember bzflag runs on: win, mac, solaris, irix, win32, *bsd, linux on alpha, arm, i386, m68k, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc |
| 22:49:37 | BZFlag | oh, ia64 too, and I'm sure I've missed some. |
| 22:49:39 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: yeah, but if we write this just to take an MD5 sum and return, it's not gonna be that hard to iron the bugs out ;) |
| 22:50:05 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: I don't have the time lately to be much use to a clan. |
| 22:50:13 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 22:50:19 | BZFlag | md5 sum of what? |
| 22:50:23 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: you could be a member of the clan in name only ;) |
| 22:50:28 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: the client |
| 22:50:37 | Chestal | I really would liek to have a more active community, peopel discussing things on bz-users |
| 22:50:41 | BZFlag | each client for each platform? |
| 22:50:41 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: if you coded it right, you could cut off any exploits |
| 22:50:45 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: yeah |
| 22:51:00 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: and on the server size, we'd just close up the checksums for trusted builds |
| 22:51:09 | BZFlag | what's to stop a client from no doing an md5, just sending a valid md5 result? |
| 22:51:30 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: heh... if you code it right, you eliminate any way of hacking it to do that |
| 22:51:42 | Chestal | vogon: cheatign problem can't be solved by client code authentication, that's impossible |
| 22:51:49 | BZFlag | just have a valid build on your machine, and your hacked client runs checks off that image. |
| 22:51:56 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 22:52:01 | Chestal | what we could do is setup a callsign server and have player authentification |
| 22:52:13 | Chestal | that's possible becuase every player could store his local secret key |
| 22:52:13 | BZFlag | Chestal: agreed. |
| 22:52:24 | vogon_jeltz | OK, fine then |
| 22:52:50 | Chestal | only question with paleyr authentification is: what use is it. Ok, it stops peopel from using other's callsigns |
| 22:53:07 | Chestal | so if someone is authenticated you can be near 100% sure he is the real one |
| 22:53:17 | BZFlag | needs a ranking engine as well. |
| 22:53:41 | BZFlag | so allow folks to cheat, but not on trusted servers. they need to be trusted players to play there. |
| 22:54:08 | Chestal | we woudl then have trusted servers and other servers? |
| 22:54:13 | BZFlag | yes. |
| 22:54:32 | Chestal | people have to collect trust points on the other servers first before able to join a trusted server? |
| 22:54:34 | vogon_jeltz | and trusted would be defined how? |
| 22:54:41 | BZFlag | rikers.org would be a ... well, a server that allows anyone to play. |
| 22:54:52 | vogon_jeltz | admin is often there, recommendations, developer use? |
| 22:55:30 | BZFlag | so there are degrees of openness on trusted servers, but all untrusted servers are completely open as they can not do nick authentication. |
| 22:55:37 | Chestal | I would say it's a server option whether you allow all playes ore only ones with more than n trust points |
| 22:55:52 | BZFlag | Chestal: yes. |
| 22:55:55 | Chestal | hmm, no nicj authentication on untrusted servers? |
| 22:56:08 | Chestal | but players need to earn trust points somehow |
| 22:56:32 | Chestal | shoudln't the trust points be stored on the authentication servr? |
| 22:56:38 | BZFlag | Chestal: not till I think it through and can prove that an untrusted server has no chance of doing a man in the middle attack and getting your private key. |
| 22:57:03 | BZFlag | Chestal: that's why rikers.org would be trusted, but open. |
| 22:57:38 | Chestal | would we have one central authentication server then? |
| 22:57:42 | BZFlag | others could be trusted but open too if they choose. |
| 22:58:08 | BZFlag | yes. bzfls would become the certificate authority |
| 22:58:13 | Chestal | and only trusted players can give trust points to other players? |
| 22:58:44 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: that's kind of the whole point of a trust/karma-based auth system |
| 22:58:58 | BZFlag | Chestal: all players can ++ or -- trust points, but high ++ players have more effect when they ++ or -- you. |
| 22:59:41 | vogon_jeltz | I think that identified cheaters should immediately have their trust-modification privileges revokes |
| 22:59:46 | vogon_jeltz | revoked, even |
| 23:00:06 | BZFlag | bzfls is already an central server now, so tracking there makes sense. |
| 23:00:16 | Chestal | yep, bzfls is a good place |
| 23:00:39 | Chestal | if it fails you can still play on open servers |
| 23:00:44 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: a "new player" will have some degree of influence as he ++s or --s. |
| 23:01:05 | BZFlag | so you can't get worse than that or a cheat will just get a new id. |
| 23:01:25 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: not if we monitor activity from their IP for a while |
| 23:01:45 | BZFlag | but the ++ or -- of a new player on others will be trivially small as compared to the effect of trusted player votes. |
| 23:02:06 | vogon_jeltz | and prevent them from getting a new account for a couple hours |
| 23:02:37 | Chestal | I guess if A trusts B (A ++s B) this should be stored onthe server not only as an increase in B's trust poins, but it should be stored that A trusts B |
| 23:02:43 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: heh. these plans have come from long conversations with the author of SubSpace. he lived and breathed similar issues for a long time. |
| 23:02:48 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 23:02:53 | Chestal | so A cannot ++ B moer than once |
| 23:03:13 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: but then you run into serious trust pool seeding issues |
| 23:03:14 | BZFlag | man people have dynamic IPs on cable modems, etc. and can just reboot the modem to get a new IP. |
| 23:03:32 | Chestal | vogon: I see no problem there. Please explain |
| 23:03:35 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: yes, but the average cheater isn't going to know that ;) |
| 23:03:50 | BZFlag | every A will have a rank effect on B. A will be able to set that rank on B at any time. |
| 23:04:26 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: the first thing JeffP (subspace) learned is not to assume that cheater "won't know that" |
| 23:04:30 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: if people can only ++ a specific person once, then you run into issues as each ++ed individual runs out of influencing people |
| 23:04:48 | BZFlag | cheaters often know more about the game than the author remembers. |
| 23:05:09 | Chestal | vogon: if they can ++ the sdame person more than once the whoel system won't work |
| 23:05:23 | Chestal | vogon: than some malevolent peopel woudl just ++ eaach other 1000 times |
| 23:05:25 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: how about additional ++'s mean less and less |
| 23:05:32 | BZFlag | every player will have a range of setting for other players. say, -5 through +5 |
| 23:05:51 | Chestal | vogon_jeltz: I reeally think having a trust setting for each pair (a,b) is enough, could be from 0 to 10 or something |
| 23:06:01 | vogon_jeltz | OK, whatever |
| 23:06:20 | vogon_jeltz | isn't up on trust, karma, etc., just logic and programming :) |
| 23:06:24 | BZFlag | the effect that rank has is weighed by how well the ranking player ranks. |
| 23:06:36 | Chestal | sounds interesting |
| 23:06:53 | Chestal | I guess this shoudl go into 1.8 or 1.9 |
| 23:07:14 | Chestal | also I don;t have too much trouble with cheaters myself |
| 23:07:18 | BZFlag | I expect to have a web site where you can see/set all the people you have ranked and also see all those that have ranked you. (but not the rank they gave) |
| 23:07:19 | Chestal | in fact, lag is more of an annoyance to me |
| 23:08:02 | Chestal | I rarely see cheaters on my server |
| 23:08:14 | Chestal | I guess it's worse on other servers, though |
| 23:08:15 | BZFlag | you get ++ or -- just for having ranked those that rank you. |
| 23:08:28 | Chestal | or the cheaters on ducati are more clever so I cannot detect them cheating ;-) |
| 23:09:54 | Chestal | but the system would have one nice side effect |
| 23:10:06 | Chestal | it woudl stop peopel from using new alias names any other day |
| 23:10:26 | BZFlag | you also get ++ and -- effect by how your out going ranks are distributed. ie: if you only ever give out +5 ranks, your rank is not as powerful as someone that gives out a more even range of ranks. |
| 23:11:15 | BZFlag | Chestal: I plan on allowing a small set of aliases for each registered key. |
| 23:11:18 | vogon_jeltz | also, people who give out +5 ranks to people while everyone else is giving them -5s should have a small trust penalty |
| 23:11:23 | Chestal | what's important is that a group of people ranking each other but not getting any positive ranks from someone outside the group, shouldn't get a high rank |
| 23:11:41 | BZFlag | and allowing folks to change nicks on the fly. things like TimLunch etc. |
| 23:11:44 | Chestal | else someone cheater could get a high rank by creating a dozen identiies and rank himself |
| 23:11:47 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 23:12:10 | BZFlag | but they cannot change to another registered nick on a trusted server. |
| 23:12:56 | BZFlag | Chestal: agreed, you get ++ or -- ranks also by how well you are connected to the rest of the web. |
| 23:13:15 | Chestal | we could integrate some kind of performance ranking into this server. Not sure whether it's a good idea, though |
| 23:13:46 | Chestal | if we want to do this, servers woudl have to authenticate themselves, too |
| 23:13:59 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: you ever used ElectricSheep? possibly the coolest screensaver ever :) |
| 23:14:12 | BZFlag | this spam cheater would start with, say 1000 accounts and have them all +5 each other. The system need to detect that kind of abuse and not allow it. |
| 23:14:41 | vogon_jeltz | how about a warm-up period for accounts |
| 23:14:53 | vogon_jeltz | so that they can't karma anyone else for say 12 hours? |
| 23:15:02 | vogon_jeltz | needs to use more commas |
| 23:15:14 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: yep, apt-get install electricsheep. ;-) |
| 23:15:21 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: gotta love it :) |
| 23:16:00 | BZFlag | yes, servers need to be authenticated or it need to be proven that unauthenticated servers can not effect the system. |
| 23:16:27 | Chestal | and of course, bzfls has to be authenticated |
| 23:16:32 | BZFlag | karma traffic will all be signed. It should not be able to be generated by the server. |
| 23:16:41 | Chestal | we could add its public key to bzflag distribution |
| 23:16:45 | BZFlag | the server is merely asking for key validation. |
| 23:17:19 | BZFlag | Chestal: true, but the dns/ip will be well known, so it should be easy to verify. |
| 23:17:52 | BZFlag | bzfls will never ask for your private key. |
| 23:18:17 | Chestal | of course not, privast ekey is only used to sign messages |
| 23:18:30 | Chestal | we'll probably not even need to encrypt any data, just hash it |
| 23:18:54 | BZFlag | yes, so a rogue bzfs would not be able to get you to sign a bogus packet. |
| 23:19:14 | BZFlag | Chestal: yes, hash will probably suffice. |
| 23:20:02 | vogon_jeltz | w00t... I contributed 327 frames to the latest sheep :) |
| 23:20:49 | BZFlag | I'm debating storing private keys someplace offline. ie: what happens when you loose your key? I'm tending towards just allowing the bzfls admin to invalidate a key and issue a new one for the same account. |
| 23:21:31 | BZFlag | so the player is the only one that ever has the private key. |
| 23:22:05 | BZFlag | in fact the player end could generate the key and send the server the public one on new nick creation. |
| 23:22:27 | Chestal | shoudl we store E-Mail with each identity? |
| 23:22:49 | Chestal | this way we could handle "lost private key" issues |
| 23:23:00 | BZFlag | yes, you MUST have a valid email and confirm a message sent to you in order to get trusted access. |
| 23:24:06 | BZFlag | Chestal: I'm assuming at present, that the server would approve a new key after issuing a key challenge to the original email address. |
| 23:24:27 | BZFlag | uh, let me reword.... |
| 23:25:23 | BZFlag | bzfls will get a new key request and send a confirmation to the email address. upon receipt of that in a reply, a new key would be approved. |
| 23:25:59 | BZFlag | so if you spoof someone's email, you can own their account. |
| 23:26:11 | Chestal | so some secret thing is transmitted in the mail from bzfls to the player? |
| 23:26:17 | BZFlag | yes |
| 23:26:44 | Chestal | we're relying on DNS then, quite unsafe ;-) |
| 23:26:58 | Chestal | but we really do not need to make it any safer |
| 23:27:00 | BZFlag | in the early stages that proceedure will include admin intervention. |
| 23:27:36 | BZFlag | Chestal: if you register an email address that is on an insecure dns system, that is your fault. ;-) |
| 23:28:25 | BZFlag | we could add a password that is only used as part of that new key process. |
| 23:28:34 | Chestal | I think it's safe to assume that bzflag cheater won't do any major hacks to do DNS spoofing or anything |
| 23:28:44 | BZFlag | or a "remind me question" deal. |
| 23:29:23 | Chestal | I guess jsut sending a random number to your registered email address should suffice |
| 23:29:44 | BZFlag | I tend to agree. |
| 23:29:50 | Chestal | this could be used when first creatign your account or changing your key / email later |
| 23:30:02 | BZFlag | yes, both. |
| 23:30:38 | Chestal | we could use M$'s passport ;-) |
| 23:30:55 | BZFlag | now there's a thought. not. |
| 23:31:01 | vogon_jeltz | ahahahahahahahahah |
| 23:31:30 | Chestal | ok, I am really gone now, it's 2:30 AM here |
| 23:31:41 | Chestal | cu |
| 23:31:41 | vogon_jeltz | bye |
| 23:32:46 | BZFlag | cya |