irclog2html for #byumug on 20060914

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14:41.44feutetejsdI'm in here two days in a row...a new record!
14:42.00banana_nealThanks for joining us :)
15:03.59banana_nealSo how much of a Mac expert are you?
15:04.38feutetejsdpretty decent....
15:04.45feutetejsdhow's that for non-commital?
15:04.56banana_nealEh, I'll take what I can get.
15:05.08banana_nealCan I ask your opinion on something?
15:07.24banana_nealK. I've been having some crash issues with my machine (a dual G5). After lots of time staring at Menu Meters, we've determined that it's probably an issue related in memory... and we believe that some process or software has a memory leak, but we can't nail down what. So here's my first question...
15:08.46banana_nealWhat is the normal CPU usage when you're not doing anything on your machine? 5%? 10%
15:09.15feutetejsdwell, I'm rarely not doing anything....
15:09.28feutetejsdmost idle machines I've dealt with are 5% used or less
15:09.53feutetejsdthey're usually Linux machines not running a GUI, however, so add a GUI on top of that and 5-10 is probably about right
15:10.00feutetejsdif the machine is just sitting there doing nothign
15:10.12banana_nealYeah, that's what I thought. When I do nothing, I'm typically cruising along at between 25% and 30%.
15:10.27feutetejsdwhat is chewing up the CPU time?
15:11.01banana_nealActivity Monitor says it's Firefox. Are you aware of any problems with Firefox on Mac?
15:12.09feutetejsdfor most pages, it's fine for me, but I've noticed that either if I have a lot of tabs open, or if the page has anything other than straight HTML (i.e. flash, QuickTime, etc), its CPU usage goes thru the roof
15:12.15banana_nealIt seems to switch, though. Sometimes it's Adobe Illustrator that's a memory hog (even when I'm idling).
15:12.15feutetejsdI have lots of problems with Flash on Firefox
15:12.42feutetejsdyeah...if there's lots of animation or audio, it gets really choppy and slows WAAAAY down
15:13.52banana_nealHuh. I've never noticed that before. I have noticed lotsa other bugs in Firefox, though. Probably the most obvious is the text parsing issue... the browser will render bold text or <em> text on top of other text or it will ignore margins. Stuff like that.
15:14.21feutetejsdhow much RAM do you have?
15:14.32feutetejsdif it's a dual G5, I'm guessing lots...
15:14.47banana_nealYep, 1GB in each processor.
15:14.59banana_nealWait. Lemme check on that.
15:15.25banana_nealSorry. 4.5 GB DDR2 SDRAM total.
15:15.45feutetejsdholy smokes
15:16.13feutetejsdso, your they just take down an app or do they kill the OS?
15:16.31banana_nealKill the OS. The computer freezes.
15:16.49banana_nealEvery once in a while I'll get the black transparent screen of death.
15:16.55banana_nealBut that's much rarer.
15:17.27banana_nealSee, right now I'm still eating lots of memory... between 10% and 20%. And I'm not really running anything significant.
15:19.24feutetejsdwell, it may be that the kernel has allocated RAM for apps that are running, but they aren't using it. MenuMeters will report what the kernel has allocated
15:19.59banana_nealHmm. K. How do I tell what the kernel has allocated?
15:21.03feutetejsdLinux has a cool command called free that will tell you, but OS X doesn' least Panther doesn't
15:21.03feutetejsdare you running Tiger?
15:21.28banana_nealI'm running 10.4.7, whichever one that is.
15:22.44feutetejsdare you familiar with Terminal?
15:23.10banana_nealJust fairly, but if you tell me what you recommend, I can have Wade walk me through it.
15:23.30feutetejsdI'd open up the Terminal and type:
15:23.34feutetejsdwhich free
15:23.42banana_nealHmmph. k.
15:23.49feutetejsdif free is installed, it'll return something like /sbin/free
15:24.10banana_nealHere's what it returned:
15:24.11feutetejsdif it's not, we can use the top command to get some idea, although not quite as nice as free
15:24.12banana_nealno free in /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin
15:24.21feutetejsdthen type:
15:24.38banana_nealWhoa. That's cool.
15:24.55feutetejsdyou should see a section near the top that is PhysMem?
15:25.07feutetejsdmine says:
15:25.08feutetejsdPhysMem:  69.2M wired,  288M active,  147M inactive,  505M used, 6.95M free
15:25.16banana_nealYa, here's what it says:
15:25.17banana_nealPhysMem:   260M wired,  441M active, 1.14G inactive, 1.82G used, 2.68G free
15:25.54feutetejsdok, so you currently have 2.68G unallocated
15:26.05feutetejsd1.14G of what has been allocated is currently inactive
15:26.19feutetejsdand I believe that memory that is allocated  but inactive CAN be used by other apps if needed
15:26.38feutetejsdit's just that the kernel reserves it for the app for which it was allocated as the first priority user of the memory
15:27.06feutetejsdbut if it's not using it, it can be re-allocated to another app that has a need
15:27.14feutetejsdI *believe* that's how it works ;)
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15:28.40feutetejsdso if I'm right, you have 3.82G that's more-or-less available for apps to use if needed
15:29.47banana_nealWell, crap, that's a ton.
15:29.50feutetejsdhere's an interesting read:
15:30.12feutetejsdremember that OS X is based on BSD UNIX, so this explanation probably applies
15:30.22feutetejsd"'Inactive' can (and usually does) include memory that was used by
15:30.22feutetejsdprocesses that are no longer running."
15:30.41feutetejsd"Keep in mind that the resident size of a process (as displayed by top(1) or
15:30.42feutetejsdps(1)) includes any shared libraries it is using. Memory for shared libraries can however be shared between several different
15:36.53feutetejsdhave you ever used the Activity Monitor?
15:40.08feutetejsdit's a GUI view into the same information provided by top, but also has HD usage, network activity and others
15:41.19banana_nealYa, I was looking at Activity Monitor just now.
15:44.57feutetejsdso, when your machine freezes, is it usually when working in one specific app? or, is one app open every time you have a crash?
15:47.14banana_nealIt's hard to tell cuz I usually have so many apps open at once. But I'm about 90% it's because I'm running an app that the crashes happen.
15:47.28banana_neal90% => 90% sure
15:48.34banana_nealHmmph. Maybe it's Firefox that keeps causing the problems. I run that an awful lot. I should see if memory usage improves if I don't run it.
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16:01.22feutetejsdwell, that was fun
16:01.26feutetejsda little crash of my own
16:01.38banana_nealDear oh dear. I'm contagious.
16:02.54banana_nealAnyhoo, thanks for looking into this issue with me for a while. I'll keep my eye on Activity Monitor and see if there's a particular app that's throwing a wrench in the gears.
16:03.03feutetejsdso, anyway it might be worth it to watch top or activity monitor while running the suspect app to see if its memory consumption slowly creeps up....
16:03.19feutetejsdit very well may be a leak in the software somewheres
16:03.29banana_nealThat's what Wade thought it was.
16:04.08feutetejsdyeah, keep an eye on activity monitor and see if there's anything that slowly creeps up in its memory usage....that's where I'd start too
16:05.54banana_nealThanks again. I sure will.
16:06.01feutetejsdso, you work with Wade, banana_neal?
16:18.24gildedcage(sorry, just dinking)
16:18.37gildedcageyeah, neal works here with wade too, but neal is currently on the can
16:18.52feutetejsdso, I guess you also with with neal and wade?
16:19.16feutetejsdare you all in design like wade, or do you have other roles?
16:19.28gildedcageall designers, more or less
16:20.00feutetejsdI once thought I had some design skills, but have long since been proven wrong :)
16:20.09feutetejsdi'll leave the designing to the designers
16:20.44gildedcagethanks, wish the general population would reach the same understanding
16:20.59feutetejsdhehe, no kidding
16:21.12gildedcagethen our plot to take over the world would be much smoother
16:21.25feutetejsdI'm sure that would help quite a lot, yes
16:23.53banana_nealSometimes, as a designer, I feel like the Brain, and I feel like the rest of the world is Pinky.
16:24.10feutetejsdwhat an awesome show that was
16:25.47feutetejsdfunny, I've felt the same way as an ops guy :D
16:25.54banana_nealExcept when I say "Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking", Pinky says "sure Brain, but where are we going to find a media buyer at this time of night?"
16:26.18banana_nealYeah, most of us "creators" do feel the same way.
16:26.47feutetejsdwade has been unusually silent this he asleep at his desk again?
16:27.11feutetejsdsomebody go poke him with a stick...
16:27.28banana_nealI should man. No, he's been around the office doing "important" stuff.
16:27.52feutetejsdme too
16:28.19banana_nealLike, for example, this morning he came running upstairs, his arms flailing wildly, screaming "Emergency! I just found a sign downstairs in comic sans!"
16:28.37banana_nealNo joke.
16:28.37feutetejsdholy crap
16:28.43banana_nealIt was hilarious.
16:28.49feutetejsdthat's awesome
16:28.57feutetejsdalthough I can't say I wouldn't do the same
16:29.07feutetejsdeven though I'm no designer, comic sans is still offensive
16:29.19banana_nealThat's fer durn sure.
16:29.54feutetejsdwas it a doba sign?
16:30.33banana_nealNah, but anything that appears in the office is supposed to be filtered by our department first. For some reason, this 'un slipped through the cracks.
16:30.47banana_nealThose fetchers.
16:31.56banana_nealcomic sans... they can comic sans half of my butt.
18:14.20jbot[macintosh] the shish
18:14.30banana_nealisn't it though?
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