| 00:56.27 | *** join/##leaguesunited Shuist (~Shuist@ppp203-122-213-220.static.internode.on.net) |
| 01:27.53 | macsforme | what is to be gained by the league or the game by adding more league maps at this time, especially some that aren't even regularly used on public servers? |
| 01:51.06 | macsforme | and I think the full-size babel works just as well as hix (which is the same size) for 2vs2... babelmini has everything shrunk proportionally, which changes up all the jumps and such |
| 01:51.40 | the_map | I think that hix is somewhat more open, so the size is less of an issue |
| 01:51.57 | the_map | however, because full size babel has a lot of buildings, it's harder to engage at distance |
| 01:52.09 | the_map | in my very expert opinion |
| 01:55.44 | macsforme | the full-size ducati has more of an issue with size, since you can't jump over the buildings and there's a lot of driving around stuff (and trying to catch up to other players running the flag) |
| 02:35.35 | allejo | what's there to be gained? a large selection of maps for players to ignore :D |
| 03:53.13 | kierra | when did we, as leaders stop taking players' requests into consideration? They discovered octocage map, got excited, have played on it for past couple days and asked for it to be official so they could fm on it. |
| 03:54.13 | kierra | if it took this long for them to find it, maybe we failed in advertising it sufficiently, idk. But the fact remains, keeping players interested and happy with the league, keeps the league going |
| 03:56.56 | kierra | babel map for 2v2 is too big....thats the complaint i heard when fm there a couple times. No one really wanted to 2v2 there. Whereas babelmini has had some activity for 2v2, 3v3. |
| 03:58.53 | kierra | and yes, the entire listserver is chock full of ignored maps....but we also have few players spread thin |
| 03:59.19 | The_Hand_of_Mike | what is the underlying issue? Playability? Interest? |
| 03:59.50 | The_Hand_of_Mike | what balancing act is being negotiated? |
| 04:01.13 | kierra | Personally, I'm for giving players what they ask for...when the request is reasonable, in the best of LU and within our means |
| 04:23.22 | macsforme | not everything someone might request is in the best interests of the league |
| 04:29.09 | kierra | what requests are out of line? |
| 04:29.21 | macsforme | allejo: with the latest league overseer, after you cancel during a countdown, you can't start a new countdown (at least for offis) |
| 04:29.22 | kierra | players want variety |
| 04:29.59 | macsforme | also, on http://leaguesunited.org/matches, if you filter by officials, there's no pagination at the bottom |
| 04:31.28 | kierra | How is the league hurt by a greater choice of maps to fm or offi on |
| 04:33.06 | allejo | macsforme, I shall investigate the issue with league overseer. |
| 04:33.19 | allejo | and *creates an issue for the filter* |
| 04:33.23 | macsforme | thanks |
| 04:33.34 | macsforme | we had to do a /mapchange to restart the server |
| 04:39.40 | allejo | https://github.com/allejo/bzion/issues/60 && https://github.com/allejo/LeagueOverseer/issues/42 |
| 04:41.34 | the_map | *canceling |
| 04:42.04 | the_map | for those of us in the US; two l's otherwise |
| 04:43.17 | allejo | I meant it as in /cancel-ing. like a reference to the command |
| 04:46.31 | the_map | oh |
| 04:47.17 | the_map | I thought my url-->page title plugin had an issue and put the / there |
| 04:47.30 | the_map | I didn't visit the page |
| 05:23.18 | Shuist | macsforme: The babelmini has everything in the x and y coordinate shrunk proportionally. After playing on it with the height changed as well the jumps are way off and so I reverted them to original height. |
| 05:23.38 | *** join/##leaguesunited TheAdmiral (~joey@talos4.birdofprey.net) |
| 05:32.51 | Shuist | Also, I can't see what a downside would be to more maps? IMO, just gives more options and possible variety |
| 05:51.52 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I can think of a couple |
| 05:52.05 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I love the idea of having many maps |
| 05:52.08 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but... |
| 05:52.35 | The_Hand_of_Mike | wouldnât it be trivial to just get permission to host a second copy of a popular map and play it with league rules? |
| 05:52.40 | The_Hand_of_Mike | also⦠|
| 05:53.07 | The_Hand_of_Mike | do we want jokers lik em (literally, me) spending all their time making maps instead of becoming a better player? |
| 05:53.34 | The_Hand_of_Mike | and if itâs a CTF map, how many shapes do we really need? |
| 05:53.38 | The_Hand_of_Mike | so I see both sides |
| 05:53.50 | The_Hand_of_Mike | then thereâs the issue of gimmicks |
| 05:54.24 | The_Hand_of_Mike | âto run the glag, you have to go through this teleporter, then down this long ramp to another teleporter where all the flags around you are SWâ¦" |
| 05:54.28 | The_Hand_of_Mike | *flag |
| 05:54.33 | The_Hand_of_Mike | 1 thumb, sorry |
| 05:55.07 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I thought about doing a pair of maps, one FFA, one CTF, and there are massive differences between them (like you need ME telling you lot this) |
| 05:55.12 | TheAdmiral | sub leagues;) but probably not enough players. |
| 05:55.18 | The_Hand_of_Mike | probably |
| 05:55.25 | The_Hand_of_Mike | probably right, I mean |
| 05:55.49 | Shuist | Yeah I see where other people are coming from too |
| 05:55.56 | The_Hand_of_Mike | The interesting maps like Fast Shot and Urban Jungle are great, but theyâre not at all good for CTF |
| 05:56.08 | The_Hand_of_Mike | an, on the WAY other end... |
| 05:56.34 | TheAdmiral | both sides are valid. constant map and rules validates everyone to same standard. so then you have sub leagues, each with diff rules and maps, if desired. but that needs more players. |
| 05:56.35 | The_Hand_of_Mike | thereâs Apocalypse, with myriad Tarantinoisms and ridiculous tactics that DIS-encourage teamwork |
| 05:56.51 | The_Hand_of_Mike | youâre right too |
| 05:57.01 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but what is the chief problem weâre trying to solve? |
| 05:57.04 | The_Hand_of_Mike | more players? |
| 05:57.06 | Shuist | But LU iusnt asking anyone to specifically make maps either. We can't stop people making maps if they like doing that instead of playing |
| 05:57.07 | The_Hand_of_Mike | variety? |
| 05:57.16 | The_Hand_of_Mike | yeah, fair enough |
| 05:57.59 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but there are a couple maps out there... |
| 05:58.10 | The_Hand_of_Mike | where the cartographer is the only admin |
| 05:58.20 | TheAdmiral | but since there aren't that many players, and depending on how important some integrated web based scoring system is, and how important that scoring/ranking system is to current players, then those are variables to decide this on. |
| 05:58.22 | The_Hand_of_Mike | and he camps his own maps to expert levels |
| 05:58.48 | The_Hand_of_Mike | making those new maps not worth returning to. I opine weâd want LU players to be happy to revisit a new map |
| 05:58.58 | TheAdmiral | if you don't have many payers and some want other maps.... might as well accomidate;) (taking the above into consideration) |
| 05:59.13 | The_Hand_of_Mike | iâm not saying don't |
| 05:59.27 | TheAdmiral | i'm not saying either;) just dropping thoughts. |
| 05:59.40 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but if we can name 1 to 3 major goals, they can be dealt with accordingly instead of trying to only have ONE initiative |
| 05:59.52 | The_Hand_of_Mike | less arguing that way |
| 05:59.54 | TheAdmiral | ran a number of gaming tornaments once, a long time ago. before what you can "the web" happened. |
| 06:00.03 | TheAdmiral | ^can=call |
| 06:01.11 | The_Hand_of_Mike | are there âlevelsâ of league maps? |
| 06:01.24 | The_Hand_of_Mike | easier maps with jumping and superflags, harder maps like Pie? |
| 06:01.26 | TheAdmiral | each tornament differed, based on community desires. but once the rules were set, you couldn't, for instance, play in a galaxy without The Great Void if that was the rule ;) same idea. hah. |
| 06:02.30 | TheAdmiral | but we'd run multiple tourneys at once. so ;) |
| 06:02.32 | TheAdmiral | point is.... |
| 06:02.38 | TheAdmiral | is the league about the scoring system? |
| 06:02.51 | TheAdmiral | or about playing games pretending they are matches? |
| 06:03.02 | TheAdmiral | answer that first and you have your other answer. |
| 06:03.13 | The_Hand_of_Mike | not to this n00b |
| 06:03.18 | TheAdmiral | me neither. |
| 06:03.21 | The_Hand_of_Mike | so I would say itâs about matches first |
| 06:03.45 | The_Hand_of_Mike | scoringâs iimportant only the way itâs important in the seasonâs assessment of a chapion team/player |
| 06:03.53 | The_Hand_of_Mike | *champion |
| 06:04.15 | The_Hand_of_Mike | scoring is the WORST part about BZFlag, IMHO |
| 06:04.22 | TheAdmiral | people like teams. its a strong aspect of human bonding. not having been in these leagues before, i really don't currently see any team aspects going on beyond the motto's players use. |
| 06:04.37 | The_Hand_of_Mike | because there are so many ways to die without trying you get a flase sense of despair and self-worthlessness |
| 06:04.56 | The_Hand_of_Mike | i cannot t y p e tonight |
| 06:05.14 | The_Hand_of_Mike | anyway |
| 06:05.38 | The_Hand_of_Mike | so if you look back on a year (or however long a season is) and you see you had a .410 average, man that is championship-level in any sport |
| 06:05.56 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but knowing how the score is running during a match is distracting |
| 06:06.12 | The_Hand_of_Mike | if thatâs the issue on the table, I will never prioritize scoring |
| 06:07.40 | TheAdmiral | spock says |
| 06:07.41 | TheAdmiral | IDIC |
| 06:07.44 | TheAdmiral | so;) |
| 06:08.10 | TheAdmiral | can't find my magic 8 ball to ask it. |
| 06:08.37 | TheAdmiral | o, left that in the '70s. |
| 06:08.48 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I have one |
| 06:08.52 | TheAdmiral | with lava lamps. |
| 06:08.53 | The_Hand_of_Mike | and even a Magic Date Ball |
| 06:09.01 | The_Hand_of_Mike | (itâs pink) |
| 06:09.06 | TheAdmiral | heh |
| 06:10.41 | TheAdmiral | well, i have no goals for any of thios. its a fun experience just playing in fm's with good players and learning from them ;) |
| 06:12.07 | TheAdmiral | but i'd say for fm's, diff maps likely map it more interesting. that's me. IDIC. |
| 06:12.44 | TheAdmiral | ^map=make |
| 06:13.36 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I agree. My hope is that THAT wouldnât be the focus of league play |
| 06:13.42 | The_Hand_of_Mike | so how does the league approve maps? |
| 06:14.14 | TheAdmiral | someone with actual knowledge will hopefully answer you;) |
| 06:14.26 | TheAdmiral | couple things to do, enjoy, mike;) |
| 06:15.32 | The_Hand_of_Mike | :-) |
| 06:17.13 | The_Hand_of_Mike | purely from a âclubâ perspective (less serious than government), the issue should probably not be whether new maps are approved, but if any given map should be approved based on the valuye it brings to the league |
| 06:17.22 | The_Hand_of_Mike | and it canât be singly-owned or singly-adminned |
| 06:17.50 | The_Hand_of_Mike | but what do I know? |
| 06:23.42 | allejo | new maps are selected based on the consensus of both league council and league admins. new maps are often proposed when several players request it |
| 06:24.25 | The_Hand_of_Mike | (1) is the league council / admins on this IRC, and (2) is there a formal vetting & voting process? |
| 06:25.25 | allejo | only kierra and myself are on IRC from the council. as for admins, there are a handful in here |
| 06:25.31 | kierra | most council and admins are not present here |
| 06:25.43 | The_Hand_of_Mike | k |
| 06:25.59 | The_Hand_of_Mike | so itâs not as simple as just tossing the idea out there |
| 06:26.25 | kierra | the discussion was posted in the admin forum for LU |
| 06:27.08 | allejo | you're welcome to suggest new maps or decisions here and you'll probably get feedback on your idea on IRC. then it could be posted to the forums for more support |
| 06:27.31 | allejo | but everything always ends up on the forums |
| 06:27.55 | allejo | unless it involves me spontaneously breaking everything, that happens on a whim |
| 06:28.00 | The_Hand_of_Mike | I really should log in there more often :-) |
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| 19:15.52 | kierra | ash |
| 19:23.32 | allejo | sha |
| 19:25.20 | Zehra | o-0 |
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| 20:46.30 | macsforme | ~allejo++ |
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| 22:46.35 | allejo | :) |
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